Full meeting transcript - April 23, 2024

» Good evening. Good evening Kershaw County citizens here with us in person and watching online. This is the April 23, 2024 regularly scheduled meeting and I call this meeting to order. This evening, our invocation will be by Pastor Marion Bennett from Bethlehem Baptist Church in Lugoff. Pastor Bennett, if you'll come up please. Thank you for being here. Good evening. It's certainly an honor for me to be present at this meeting. As stated, I serve as pastor of the Bethlehem Missionary Baptist Church that's located in Lugoff and proud to represent clergy on this occasion. Let us pray. To the all-wise God, we praise you for this day and we pray, Father, even in this moment, for this woman of council and all of the council men.

» We ask of you, O God, that you will grant each of them a spirit of guidance and wisdom and we pray, O God, that your spirit will dwell among this setting. We invoke your presence and we pray, Father, for the citizens of this county, Kershaw County, that you would be with them even those who have come to share and for those that are viewing online. We ask, O God, that your spirit will guide us throughout this entire setting. We thank you for being who you are, for we are reminded, O God, that unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who builds it. Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman's awake but in vain. So we pray of your presence and we ask, O God, that you will be with us now both this day and forevermore.

» This we ask of you in the glorious name of your darling son who gave himself for us all upon Calvary's tree. This is our prayer that we pray in Christ Jesus' name. Amen. Pastor Bennett, thank you for getting the concerned clergy involved too. Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Thank you. Up to item number four in our tonight's agenda. We do expect Mr. Tomlinson to be calling in and Mr. Tucker Jr. will be a little late this evening. Before we get to the adoption, I'm going to reorder one item. If you'll look at your agenda, item number 17, executive session. We're going to do that right after item number 10, discussions. All right, and is there a motion to approve tonight's agenda? I'll make the motion to approve tonight's agenda. Okay, is there a second? Second. Second by Mr.

» Cato. I do have one update. I move to amend the agenda to place item number 10, emergency operations plan under new business. Is there a second on that motion? I'll second. Second by Mr. Shoemake. The reason for this is that does need a vote this evening, so it wouldn't be appropriate for discussion. We put under new business, then we can take a vote when we get to it. Any questions about that? Okay. Yeah, just how did that happen? Was it just an error or did we plan to discuss it? I'm going to refer to Mr. DeBose on that. It was just a miscommunication with the clerk of council between our office. It needed a vote or didn't need a vote. It does, yes. I'm going to understand, thank you. Okay, any other amendments or updates needed? Okay.

» All those in favor of adopting tonight's agenda as amended indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Jones, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake and Mr. Brazel. All right, agenda is adopted. Again, strike number 10, put executive session at number 10 and then add an item to number 12, the emergency plan. All right. Proclamations tonight. Two proclamations. The first is for Fair Housing Month. So each April we are required to declare that April is Fair Housing Month. This is a requirement to receive grants from the Council of Governments. Fair Housing Month proclamation.

» Whereas Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, also known as the Fair Housing Act, was enacted on April 11th, 1968 by President Lyndon Johnson, enshrining into federal law the goal of eliminating racial segregation and ending housing discrimination in the United States. And whereas the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing based on race, color, religion, sex, familiar status, national origin and disability and commits recipients of federal funding to affirmatively further fair housing in their communities. And whereas Kershaw County is committed to the mission and intent of Congress to provide fair and equal housing opportunities for all. And whereas our social fabric, the economy, health and environment are strengthened and diverse, inclusive communities.

» And whereas more than 50 years after the passage of the Fair Housing Act, discrimination in housing markets still exists and many communities are segregated. And whereas acts of housing discrimination and barriers to equal housing opportunity are repugnant to a common sense of decency, fairness and dignity. And now therefore, Kershaw County Council hereby proclaims this month of April 2024 as Fair Housing Month and encourages all citizens to prevent discrimination and reverse housing segregation by increasing opportunities for minority home ownership and invest in affordable housing across our county. Is there a motion to accept this proclamation? I make a motion to accept the proclamation. Mr. Brazel and second by Mr. Cato. Any discussion? Yes, I have a question. Yes, Mr. Jones.

» You said discrimination still exists. Do we have any evidence of that? I mean, I was just wondering. I did not bring any evidence. This was this is the verbiage that was sent to us from the COG. Miss Parler and I reviewed it. We didn't ask for that. But I can certainly get that for you. I think in the last 50 years, I think things have gotten really good. I mean, you know, we can't even find a minority district anymore when we have to redistrict because, you know, everybody's blended in living together, which is a good thing. And I would like to know where there is discrimination because I'd jump on it in a minute. I think anybody on council would. So I just anyway, just a concern because I think things have come a long ways and doing a lot better. And I will support this.

» I wish I would answer my question. This is Kershaw County's proclamation. So we can change it out to we wish. This is generic language. I have no faith in the college anyway, but it's generic language for the entire country, though there. There certainly are discriminatory actions that do go on in housing. I'm not going to say they're in Kershaw County, but it's a generic proclamation. Well, I'm going to support this, but I'm going to do it in the honor of my friend, George, George and Evelyn Gibson. He's my brother. Love him. And we keep our prayers out there for Evelyn as well, too. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Do you want to make any updates to it or do what now? Make any updates to it the way it reads? Okay, it's fine. Cogs sent it to us. Must be fine. Okay.

» Any other questions or concerns? None here. Okay. All those in favor of declaring fair housing month, as April and Kershaw County indicate by raising your hand, Mr. Jones, Mr. Kato, myself, Mr. Shoemake and Mr. Brasel. So that will get signed and also printed in the newspaper. Next proclamation, Stewardship Week. And is Mr. Ed Estridge here representing the district? Hi, Mr. Estridge. You can come forward, please, while I read this. Whereas the National Association of Conservation District, NACD, is a non-profit organization that represents America's 3,000 conservation districts and the individuals serving on the governing boards of those conservation districts.

» And whereas conservation districts are local units of government established by state law to carry out resource management programs at a local level. And whereas the Kershaw Conservation District serves as an important role in putting conservation on the ground through contracts which have brought in over $400,000 to Kershaw County by cooperating with landowners to manage and protect natural resources and their land. And whereas the NACD has celebrated a Stewardship Week annually since 1955 between the last Sunday in April and the first Sunday in May to remind us of our individual responsibilities to take care for natural resources. And whereas NACD's 69th Stewardship Week will be held April 28th to May 5th and is focused on forest.

» And whereas fertile soil and clean water is the lifeblood of nutrition and soil conservation is a benefit to everyone. And whereas effective conservation practices ensure soil, water, animals, plants and air provide a rich standard of living. And whereas Kershaw County wishes to support the work of the NACD and the Kershaw Conservation District of South Carolina and Kershaw County. Now therefore be it proclaimed by Kershaw County Council that April 28th, 2024 to May 5th, 2024 is designated Stewardship Week to applaud and promote the work of NACD in providing educational learning experiences for students and adults to increase awareness about the importance of natural resource conservation. Is there a motion to accept this proclamation? Make a motion we accept the proclamation. Okay, Mr.

» Cato with the motion. Is there a second? I'll second. Second by Mr. Shoemake. And Mr. Estridge, thank you for being here tonight. Is there anything you'd like to add or any information? Can you speak into the microphone, please? Thank you. I'm sorry. On behalf of the Conservation Commission, I would just like to thank the council for all their support in the past and hopefully in the future as we try to educate folks and conserve our natural resources here in the county. Thank y'all so much. We appreciate what you do. Any questions? I don't have any questions, but I've known Mr. Estridge my whole life. I grew up in the same area he grew up in and I just want to thank you for the work you do. You do a lot of work up there in your family.

» The whole family up there is into the forestry and management and we just thank you so much for what you do to preserve our land. All right. All those in favor of proclaiming April 28th to May 5th, 2024 as Stewardship Week in Kershaw County indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Basel, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato and Mr. Jones. And Mr. Estridge, we'll get this signed and get a copy to you so that you can display it wherever you do like. All right. Up to number six, public comments. And we also have a public hearing this evening. There are 12 speakers signed up tonight. We read the rules before we get started. Yes, absolutely. Public comment guidelines. Public comment is an opportunity for members of the public to share information with council.

» It is not a time for debate with or questions and answers for council. It is a time for council to receive input. It is not a time for council response. In short, during public comment, council will listen to the public comment, but not comment on the public comment. Offensive and inappropriate comments will not be tolerated. If a group would like to speak to council, we request that a spokesperson be selected and that this person indicate the group he or she is representing. Public comment is a time to discuss issues. Public comment period is limited to five minutes maximum allowed per individual speaker.

» Public comments to council as an agenda item shall continue uninterrupted and be live streamed by audio and video when available until public comment agenda item is finished and concluded. The first speaker tonight is Linda Franklin Moore. Hi, Linda. Thank you, council, for allowing us this opportunity to speak on such an important issue as economic development. The question before you regarding lot size of housing developments is directly tied to economic development. Do not want to sound like a broken record, but if developments are based on three houses per acre, then those homes have to be on a sewer system. Septic tanks need sufficient lot size for a drain line or a drain field.

» And if developments are on the sewer system, then council will need to consider the waste load allocation for sewer. Do we allow mega developments or do we recruit industry? So we have, do you trade houses for jobs? How does that work? Everyone on council should be familiar with the process of allocating sewer capacity. Once our capacity is reached, then other stakeholders will be asked to reduce their capacity. We all know that is not going to happen. While no one in this group is opposed to folks building homes, they do object to the density of these developments. I would encourage council to vote on lot sizes, no less than half an acre per home. If this is not possible, then a moratorium on development should be implemented until the comprehensive use plan has been adopted. Thank you.

» Thank you, Ms. Franklin Moore. The next speaker tonight is Anna Locke. Hi, Anna. And thank you to the council. I will try to be brief. My name is Anna Locke and thank you for your commitment, your continued commitment to transparency. In each of our days, we have things that we are required to do, must do, or have to do because someone else tells us to. I believe in responsible growth and the fact that growth involves give and take. Give and take involves the creation of bold ideas and the willingness to work with others towards a resolution. And that's not always on the first draft or the first run of a bold idea. Thank you for engaging in the exchanging of ideas for growth in Kershaw County. Changes to any ordinance, as some of those that are presented tonight are a step.

» And participating in responsible growth. And I personally believe that that first step of responsible growth is participation. Thank you for what you're doing. Thank you, Ms. Locke. The next speaker is Stuart Grant. Hi, Stuart. Madam chair. Um, I'm Stuart Grant. I'm the owner of the Camden training center. Um, with me is, um, Paul Harrison, who's a civil engineer, who's going to be speaking later, and also Keith Babcock and Joe Barry of the law firm of Lewis Babcock. Um, there are a lot of people who believe that the increase in lot size is directed specifically at the Camden training center. But I would like to talk about the effect that it will have countywide.

» Uh, council increased the lot sizes last, um, August from 6,000 square feet to 15,000 square feet is now considering an increase to half an acre. Uh, let's talk about the effect, uh, that this would have countywide, um, new construction prices will soar. It requires the same roads, the same sidewalks, the same utilities, but with fewer Howard houses to share those costs and more land assigned to each house, thereby driving up costs. This will result in certainly less development and maybe no development. Cost of houses will increase dramatically.

» And the question is, will there be buyers who can afford new houses? Will the demographics of Kershaw County mean that all new building stops? Will you actually be causing a local recession? Let's talk about who loses, especially since this is fair housing month, as we just heard, who's going to lose the middle class, the middle class will lose because they will be priced out of the new construction market. New construction will be only for wealthy. If you drive up the prices, who else loses the young, the first time buyers, they won't be able to get into the housing market. Prices will be too high and lot maintenance will be too high. And if those aren't built and there's not anywhere for the people living in houses now to move the young will never be able to get into the market.

» Who else loses seniors, empty nesters, they don't want lots of land that requires maintenance. We've done our time mowing lawns. I don't want 15,000 square feet. My kids are gone and there's nobody to help. That is how seniors look. It's how I certainly feel. And finally, workers, the economic benefits of construction will end and that drives jobs, not only the immediate jobs of construction, but also all the ancillary jobs. The other thing that county council has done, it's remove the ability to cluster open space, both by its ordinance in August, as well as its clarification more recently and by increasing lot size. If the goal was to reduce density, increasing lot size is a poor way to accomplish that goal.

» What it does is it takes the open space and it chops it up into little pieces so that each little piece belongs to the house. It prevents the clustering of open space to create parks, trails and other common facilities. It forces homeowners to absorb increased maintenance costs and responsibilities. It actually leads to ugly developments with a very crowded look. Clustering open space allows prettier developments and more efficient use of open space. Clustering allows for a community to be built. Clustering also reduces the cost of building new houses. There's less cost for roads, sidewalks, pipes, and it allows for the same house to be sold for less. Opening up home ownership for more people. A win for the middle class. So I ask you to think about this.

» There's been a lot of changes the goalposts have been moving very quickly and I ask you to think about should we be doing this. We would like for the county to have reasonable growth. We would like to sit down with the county and talk about our project as I assume others would like to talk about their project and we'd like to talk based on facts not emotion. And I ask as you address this to think about the real cause of what this will do and the unintended consequences of what it will do and think about isn't there a better way to achieve these goals. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Grant and Miss Parler Mr. Tucker juniors here if you'll put him on the record at 620 and Mr. Tucker we are on the fourth speaker of 12 on public comments. Thank you. The next speaker tonight is Paul Harrison.

» Hi Paul. Good evening Madam Chair members of council. My name is Paul Harrison. I'm a licensed engineer in South Carolina. I have basically been involved in residential developments and projects for 25 plus years now. And I'm here tonight speaking on item elf is Willis Stewart was and just wanted to talk a little bit about the presentation or as it's currently presented. And based on my experience this catch all ordinance minimum lot size it goes against everything as far as a standard planning practices that I've ever seen as long as I've been practicing engineering. It really should not be looked at that way. Really growth higher density should be if existing infrastructure should be a main emphasis.

» I think your current comp plan the Kershaw County comp plan and the future land use map does a does a good job of emphasizing the major corridors and the major centers where public water public sewer public infrastructure is available and it focuses on those areas. And I think it does a pretty good job of emphasizing where density should be as opposed to half acre lots one acre lots that you would typically see in a rural rural setting. I think Kershaw County is experiencing growth just like every other county in South Carolina. And I've been in plenty of these meetings and the growth we're not going to be able to stop the growth. People are coming to South Carolina. People are going to come to Kershaw County. It's a good thing.

» But when you throw a catch all ordinance out that requires a minimum half acre lot and if Kershaw County currently needs 500 lots over the next year or over the next two two years you can you can get those lots via more high density neighborhoods where the infrastructure supports it or you're going to get it by people who go out and just develop multiple subdivisions in rural areas and in my opinion that puts just as much stress and just as much burden on the county services public works emergency services bus rides the routes get a lot longer the rides to school get a lot longer. So we're not going to be able to stop the growth and I think this the way this is amendment is currently presented it it it's going to be a detriment to land owners and property owners in Kershaw County.

» It's effectively zoning property without rezoning the property in essence because it is a catch all ordinance. It applies to all residential developments and I think that's just the point I would make I'm against this amendment and I thank you for your time. Thank you Mr. Harrison. The next speaker is Julia Fisher. Hi Julia. Thank you again. Appreciate the council offering a foreigner an opportunity to speak before the body. First time I came to Camden a few weeks ago to speak about the development question that's going on in Camden and Kershaw County as a preamble to my comments I was asked to report if I was in fact paying taxes in the city of Camden as along with my name and address.

» And because I do not live in Camden I travel an hour every time one way to come here and make these comments but because I don't live in Camden I suspect there are some people who might feel strongly that I don't have standing to be making public comments about what you folks are doing here in Kershaw County. But let me assure you that if I don't pay taxes at the very least my money comes to Camden. I bring my horse to Camden I bring my truck and my trailer and my friends and I bring my business for my trailer and I bring my needs for my tack and my resources for my equine activities to Camden.

» And from that standpoint I would report that part of the reason I do that why do I come to Camden or Kershaw County because it's a hub it's a hub for the state of South Carolina for equine activities and there's a lot of people in the state who gravitate to Camden and Kershaw County for that reason. I discovered horses a few years ago I mentioned that the last time I was here and actually the other thing that I discovered surprisingly was the horse people. And for people who are not a part of this community you simply cannot imagine the immensity and the intensity of this community. This is another whole world out there that's kind of under the radar for people again who are not part of that community.

» But I can assure you that it's a very powerful and useful and and satisfying and I'm not going to have enough good adjectives to go with that one. But let me just say that for there's this whole world and I keep repeating this figure of two billion dollars in revenue for the state of South Carolina alone. The American Horse Council just released their results for their economic impact statement for the country last year 2023 and their figures are somewhere closer to two hundred billion dollars for the United States for equine activities. So what that really means actually is that if we continue to ignore these figures and basically don't protect green spaces and close out some of these equine facilities and activities from the state that's not going to die.

» It's going to go somewhere else. OK. And we'll have to say that because I'm traveling to Camden and Kershaw County if that community and that money and those activities and those resources go somewhere else. So will I. And so while I might not have standing in some people's eyes what that's going to do is leave the good taxpayers the good people of the city of Camden and the county of Kershaw to deal with the overcrowded schools and the overtax sewer system and the excessive traffic and I think responsible planning and strategic planning for this kind of development would help alleviate some of those issues for the good people of Camden. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Fisher. And Mr. Fisher it's not a requirement to speak at County Council to pay property tax.

» So thank you for bringing your horse here. We do. We would love to have you. All right. The next speaker tonight is Arch Kingsley. Hi Arch. Madam Chair. Council thank you very much again for this opportunity to speak. And I am warmed tonight hearing the meeting open with a proclamation of the stewardship week in South in Kershaw County and your honor of Mr. Estridge and his work on the Conservation Commission and listening to Mr. Grant and his engineer speak. I think they offer up some very important philosophical thoughts.

» I agree with them that housing and density needs to be offset with green space and that it's important to to to maintain some level of our of our community and our existing infrastructure that the delicate balance between our infrastructure to have open space offsetting the housing. I don't know how best to accomplish that. I know that that I know that going forward there is going to be an insatiable appetite for the land and the resources of Kershaw County by far flung development corporations and land speculators.

» And we're asking this board to use all and any means that you have any tools at your disposal to slow this push in the name of maintaining some of our community's identity in the name of maintaining the delicate balance between our rate of growth and our delicate and overburdened infrastructure and in the name of honoring our centuries of history and our existing population and businesses. Please consider for the good of the people of Kershaw County increasing the minimum lot size to half an acre to discourage the impending push of this development and what seems to be the destruction of our way of life. Please use these tools to help protect us and the citizens of Kershaw County. And it is it is your calling. It is a conversation between us the members of this community.

» And I really appreciate the opportunity to speak on this behalf. I don't have the answers. I know that in planning and zoning when we spoke to them last they took political cover behind you all saying that it is ultimately your decision and there's nothing that they can do about it. And I ask you all to please please protect us as members of Kershaw County and those of us that are stakeholders in this community. And of course try not to disenfranchise the landowners in any way possible. We are all Americans and we all have our property rights. But we also are vested and invested in this community as as we've all come here for our own reasons and appreciate the legacy that's been left to us. Let's let's leave it for generations to come. Thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Kingsley.

» The next speaker is Melissa Barton. Hi Melissa. County Council thank you for letting me come here again tonight. Thank you for the opportunity to do this every other week. I have been hanging out with you guys for the last couple of weeks. I'm enjoying it. I'm not disappointed wholly in the move. Miss Barton can you move I'm sorry to interrupt you. Move the microphone up a little bit. There you go. Thank you. I believe that we're moving in a positive direction. I am part of a generation of people who I see in front of me and I think that the movement we're making currently is positive in all directions. I know that there is a lot of fussing. I know your jobs are hard. I know what you're doing every day. You're walking away from your families to make big decisions.

» Your families are the reason I'm here just like mine. My kids matter. My kids myself matter. Every decision you make going forward. They do matter for us. Whether it's a road, whether it's a house, whether it's a green space, whether you're talking about litter because what we have here is a problem now. What are we going to have in 20 years? You have a rare opportunity. You have a rare opportunity being the very first chairwoman. Something we can really be proud of here in Kershaw County. Everybody that has sat on this council for quite some time has had opportunities put in front of them, but never like this. Everybody's hollering, stop, stop, stop. Everybody's saying we've got too much. There's traffic. The schools have got problems. You can see it. It's in the newspaper today.

» They call for it. They know what we're voicing. It's out here in front of you. It's out here in front of your planning and zoning commission. When you vote, just vote like it's going to matter in 20 years. Set precedence today. That's what you're that's what you're here for. You're here to set a precedence. You're here to change things. Make positive changes. Keep doing what you're doing. And we will see positive growth. Growth is imminent. I know this. Everybody knows this. They're going to build houses because we have people constantly. I have four kids. So I have populated the earth four times. Four kids that are going to need houses one day. I'm not an idiot. I know that we're going to need houses. Green spaces are a huge deal. Kershaw County is full of them.

» I know we got some hunting, fishing people in this county. We need space to do it. OK, they need space to run and grow. And in a world of places where I hate to say this, I don't want my kids staring at these. I want them running. I want them thriving. I want them out in the dirt. Our conservation efforts. I'm glad to see that tonight because it is actually the opposite of what everybody's screaming. We need conservation. We don't need more housing. Density is a problem. It's going to be a problem whether we put in five houses, 20 houses, 50 houses, 790 houses. It's going to be a problem. But that's your problem. And that's what we're all here to do. We're here to ask you to handle it appropriately by the voices that we're here.

» I do believe the Planning Zoning Commission said that we came out on a whim. I will be here on a whim every Tuesday night going forward. I believe there are a lot of people behind me that feel the same way. We do not want to be a thorn in your side. We want to be an asset to you as you should be to us. We implore you going forward to vote, not just for us, for future generations so that in five years we're not knocking on the same door. We don't want to we don't want to see that in five years, not in 10 years. If we slow it down now, if we pump the brakes, as I'm going to quote Planning and Zoning Commission and just reassess. I used to work for the assessor's office. Reassessment comes every four years. I'm very clear on that.

» If we can reassess values of homes, we can also reassess everything that comes with it. It's not a bad time. Everybody's watching. You can make good decisions. You can reassess. You have that power. Please use your power for the people behind me and all the people that's going to come after them. We will see you next Tuesday. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Barton. The next speaker is Dye DeBose. Hi, Dye. Mr. Grant certainly has done us a great favor. He has opened our eyes to the definition of responsible growth, which is supporting a balance of growth is helping protect the quality of life, ecosystems, open space for future generations. One thing I know it is not putting more of a burden than it already have on the taxpayers, the police and firefighters, the nurses and doctors and teachers.

» Our water supply, it will be gold one day. It will be considered gold one day and the safety of our water supply, our sewage treatment, our trash and garbage, our bridges and roads. I think our bridges are going to have to be checked. Continually, because of the earthquake shocks we've been experiencing in Kershaw County. Two weeks ago or more, I guess it was more. I can't keep track of time. I went to a meeting regarding the comprehensive plan for the county. I saw areas of great concern, so I must disagree with the engineer of Mr. Grant's. I saw areas of great concern. I saw farmland being made into suburbia and I saw not enough attention being made to agriculture, open spaces, wildlife. Where are they all going to go? Watersheds, wetlands.

» Therefore, I would like to see a three year moratorium on all major developments so that we cannot make mistakes on this comprehensive plan. As Melissa and others have so aptly reported, we want our children to return to Camden. This is about our children. We need to get this one right. Please, for the sake of Camden and for all of the citizens, let's take our time. This is not a no to builders. It's just a no to major developers. Thank you, Mr. Bowes. The next speaker is Tom Webb III. Hi, Tom. I wasn't intending to speak about development, but since that's on the agenda, I guess I'll speak about it a little bit. It looks to me like stop the expansion of the sewer system would would help a lot with discouraging people to come here. But there's some very nice people that are coming here.

» There really are. I've met some of them. But we live in really strange times. We could be at war pretty soon with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, all of them at once. There are millions of people in this country unvetted. We don't know what they're doing here, why they're here. They could participate in civil unrest, in which case the supply chain will go to ruin. We won't be getting anything in our grocery stores. And all these people moving into Kershaw County are going to be hungry. We would already be on starvation rations. We we can't afford to feed ourselves like it is. We can't feed these people coming in if the supply chain breaks. And like I say, it is interesting times. And we have an example of it, just covid when the shelves were kind of bare in stores.

» Next time it could be much worse and we could be in a lot of trouble. So I think it's really an important issue to deal with, even though these are some very nice people coming here. If they come here to suffer when the supply chain goes down, they're going to make us suffer. And I'm really sorry for them and be sorry for us. So that's about the extent of what I will say about this development. But I was going to turn in a can of pork and beans and another can because your litter ordinance makes it illegal for me to own a can. It really does. It makes it illegal for me to own a can. So but I'll I'll I'll you got so many people here today speaking about other things important that I won't really talk about it because it'll be in one ear and out the other.

» But you've set the stage for something. You don't intend for cans to be confiscated, I'm sure. But the next the next or the next or the next council will have this to stand on to say you cannot have cans and other things as well. I handed in a flower pot recently because we're not supposed to have crockery. But I guess that's about enough. I'll take my can and bring it back another time. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Well, the next speaker is Len Konto. Hi, Len. I want to thank you all for letting me speak today. I'm Len Konto, and I've been living in Kershaw County for 30 years. I came to the zoning and planning meeting last week. And one of my biggest concerns in the decision that was made last week is two of the members were absent.

» And if they'd voted, it could have gone a different direction. Eight people stood up and spoke about consideration of changing the ordinance to twenty one thousand seven hundred eighty square feet. And once one person spoke against it, once one concern about the ordinance was it was just changed six months ago to fifteen thousand square feet. But you've had time to analyze what is happening with growth in Columbia, Elgin, Lugoff. And now we've had time to realize that with the scout plant, motor plant coming, it's a good possibility that that growth is going to hit us pretty hard. It could be too late if we wait for a comprehensive growth and plan to be written for the square footage is changed to twenty one thousand seven hundred eighty square feet.

» So the fact is Scout Motors has about 4000 employees and they're going to have to live somewhere. When you make a decision to consider density, consider also that there are multifamilies involved and we have to take that into consideration. First time home buyers are not typically buying new homes. I didn't. I bought two older homes and fix them up and then sold them and use that money to buy and build a new home. This is not addressing just one development like the airport development or the Camden Training Center. When you drive through the our homes and how close they are together, that is not conservation. That is not looking at open space. And I can't imagine that happening throughout Camden.

» It is incredibly short sighted to wait until unchecked growth happens, then make a plan for growth and development. It is very important now to consider a moratorium until an official plan can be put into place. Impact fees need to be applied to large home developments for more homes to pay for infrastructure costs because we should not be paying for other people's changes in houses. And what I mean by that is I should not pay for somebody who builds 300, 400, 800 homes for their infrastructure and the impact on schools. I've shared with you some information on schools and how much it would financially affect the schools. I've also shared with you the median for homes in other states, which I think are very important to look at.

» What is a moratorium? It is a legal temporary prevention of an activity that allows the government time to make wise decisions. It is time to be wise. This gives the government legal authorization to delay specific types of construction that would create financial burden on this community. This will create a burden on our community. Recently, a lawyer was sent to Kershaw County Zoning and Planning, threatening to sue the committee and the council if they decided to change the ordinance. It is legal to change an ordinance if we feel is needed. What counties have already instituted a moratorium? Jasper County implemented a 270-day moratorium to give county officials time to evaluate how to handle growth responsibility.

» One of my biggest concerns is the impact on schools and the cost to taxpayers. This means we will have to pay the cost of growth created by those developing and that money will leave Kershaw County and the state of South Carolina. Other places that have moratoriums in place are Awandaw. Easley is working on theirs. Awandaw has blocked new subdivision involving more than five parcels of land. Prevention of any residential commercial land using use changes, rezoning and remain in place for over a year until the town council acts to adopt a comprehensive plan and recommended town code amendments. My point being, it can be used for a good benefit.

» Why have counties increased their acreage for building homes to protect the environment, to control traffic, to make sure we have the utilities in place and prevent a strain on public service agencies such as police, fire department. Ms. Canto, I'm so sorry I was writing, but you're out of time. All right. I'm sorry to cut you off. You're welcome. The next speaker tonight is William Browning. Hi, William. Madam Chair, members of the council. Good evening. Tonight, I kind of learned something in the presentations. What I learned tonight was that the CTT project sponsors are very interested in creating a lot of entry level homes in our county marketplace. Now, what's interesting about that is if you drive from here to Pontiac, there is an abundance of inventory of starter homes.

» We don't need a whole bunch of new starter homes in downtown Camden. But to that end, what I want to offer this evening is that as we look at responsible growth, I think one of the things that we need to do is be certain that we have a third party, a disinterested entity that takes a look at these plans and determines to us what is the fair and equitable way to move forward because there's two things with that. I would like this third party firm that looks at these proposed growth plans and determines whether our planning group was right or wrong or the project sponsors are right or wrong. I'd like to have that third party input and I think it needs to be circulated and allowed for public review. Everyone have a good evening. Thank you so much for the time. Thank you, Mr. Browning.

» All right, the next speaker, the name is illegible. If you signed up last, please come forward. Miss May, good evening. Can you state your name for the record so I can put it on this sheet? Yes, good evening. I'm Dr. Maggie May, my penmanship's always been chicken scratch, so apologies for that. I am here. I am here to provide a request to cease and desist on Kershaw County Council Chairwoman Katie Gwinn. Miss May, this is public comment so we don't respond, so we're listening. I know, I know. For those of you who don't know me, many of you in this room, grew up here. That's exactly what I did too. And after military service, 10 years as a military spouse, earning my doctorate in education, I decided to raise my children in the home that made me. I've always relied on my faith.

» Recently, I started my own mediation company that helps solve family conflicts. At the end of the day, I consider myself a woman's woman. I've prayed for members in this room, for their families, for my children, for the leaders of our city, county, state, across this country. It saddens me desperately that false allegations that happened to align with an announcement to run for political office has been made recently. For Councilwoman Gwinn, particularly. Point of order. I've prayed for you. Yes, Mr. Basso, what's your point of order? We're here to hear county matters, not personal matters. No, it's legal, but that's all. Thank you, ma'am. This concludes the public comment section of county council. We'll get back to the agenda.

» Next is a public hearing on an ordinance to amend the Kershaw County Unified Code of Zoning and Land Development Regulations to remove table 5-10 and amend chapter 5, section 3.8-3 and chapter 5, section 3.8-6 to update and clarify road design standards by reference and incorporation of design criteria and standards of the South Carolina Asphalt Pavement Association, SCAPA. I'll open the public hearing now. We didn't have any citizens sign up, but if you would wish to speak at this public comment or this public hearing, please approach the podium. All right, there are no speakers tonight for this public hearing, so I'll close the public hearing and back to the agenda. Up to item number eight, public presentation.

» Tonight, we're gonna have a presentation from the KC Trails, Bob Giangionni and Tom Slyker. Thank you for being here, gentlemen. We've appropriately named this state of the trails. Gentlemen, you have the floor. Mr. Tomlinson, can you hear us? Yes, can y'all hear me? Yes, we hear you loud and clear. All right. Thank you, Councilwoman. Ms. Hanna's adding you to the meeting and welcome. We are on item number eight, public presentations, and it's about to begin. Well, thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to come before the Council to talk about KC Trails. It was approximately a year ago, it was the last time that we updated you on our activities. Also thanks to County Council, County Administration for the effort to improve the recreation environment throughout the county.

» That is very important work that affects all citizens in the county. In your packet, you have a copy of the presentation we'll be giving, the PowerPoint. You also have a copy of our 2024 agenda. And there are also in there some new handouts that we've developed that we use throughout all of our activities in the county. And Tom Slyker will take a moment to just explain what those are all about. Good evening, Council. Good evening. In your packet that you just got, you should see one of the items is the smaller one. This is a brochure that talks about KC Trails and the commitment to provide safe places for people to walk and run and paddle. And it also has, so this is a new brochure that I want you to look at. The other is this larger one which is a map.

» And this is a map that shows 24 places in Kershaw County where people can go and walk. And that includes several schools because of the open community use law that allows for people to come in and walk these trails and use the playgrounds and such. So these are two new documents. I also want to just remind you, last year we provided this State of the Trails document, which documented some of the improvements that have been made over the years to our trails. And then also I just wanted to remind you all of this important document, which is the Kershaw County Bicycle, Pedestrian and Greenways Plan, which is more than 10 years old, but it's a good blueprint for where we wanna go. And there's so many opportunities to increase the trail network, to connect trails and so forth.

» And so I just wanted to remind you all of that and Bob will walk us through our agenda. Okay, just to start off, we've talked before about the value of trails. And it adds to the quality of life of the county. It adds to economic development. It improves both physical and mental health. And that is one point that we try very hard to make through our social media posts on our website is what it does for the physical and mental health of all citizens in the county. And we will be spending more time focusing on youth in that regard. We're making many efforts to try to get more youth out into nature. We've worked with the Livewell Kershaw Chip Plan. We received a grant for nature as teacher to put together a one week summer camp the first week of June.

» And this is directed at youth and getting them out in nature and helping them develop their skill sets in terms of resiliency. It's gonna be an important program. Our purpose in general is to advocate for more trails in the county. We also communicate about those trails too throughout the county. And the idea again of the physical movement is just so critical to our total mission. Our activities in the past year have been county wide. Not all of them have just been county activities. We've been involved with many of the cities and towns throughout the county as well as with other organizations. The list here is indicative of our activity. We sponsored the first day hike out of Goodall State Park. We've been at that three years now. We had 165 people.

» Last January 1st participate, including, well in addition, there were about 10 or 15 dogs that made the walk. So it's a fun event. Kids in Bark Park Day. We've participated in that. We've held bike rodeos in the past. This year we'll be doing a youth bike ride out at nature as teacher. And that takes place in mid May. We've helped out at the back to school programs across the county. We've participated in this room in the Kershaw County Wellness event to get good information out to county employees about the availability of trails. Again, we're very active at nature as teacher. And as I mentioned, the Live Well Kershaw Chip Plan, we participate on the Resilient Children and Families Team.

» The last one that's mentioned here, the Ride of Silence, that takes place in May and that's to promote bicycle safety throughout the county. In 2024, we'll be doing many of these same events. This weekend, for example, we have the Friends of Goodall is putting on a Family Fun Day at Goodall to try to get more families to understand all the opportunities that are out there. And again, KC Trails will be participating there. I suggest too that you go to our website and our Facebook page. There's just a wealth of information there about the trails in Kershaw County. And Tom had talked about that trail map. That is probably the most popular thing that we've ever put together.

» I can't tell you how many times people will come up and say, we had no idea there was this much available in Kershaw County and we're finally learning where some of these places are. And so again, it's good information and we wanna continue to improve our communications and get people engaged. We feel one of the things that is important is to optimize the investment that we have in place. Last time I was here, I said we were on the cusp of about 25 miles of nature trails. That's just nature trails. There are a lot of other walking trails. But 25 miles of nature trails in Kershaw County there's a lot that can be done to add to that. In the handout, the 2024 agenda, the last page, there's a list of about at least 10 or 12 different possible projects.

» But I wanna just comment on three of them. The Nature as Teacher and County Partnership was talked about last year. Some work was taken to make that happen. It hasn't come together yet. We're recommending that that be re-initiated. Number one, you have 10 miles of trails at Nature as Teacher. It's only available one weekend a month, March through November, available to the public one Saturday a month. That's usually the first Saturday, March through November. We would like to see that move to at least two if not three Saturdays a month. I'm out there usually every Open Trails Day helping. We get people from Sumter County. We get people from Richland. We get others that are there for the first time. After they make a hike, they come back and they say, what a wonderful place this is.

» What a jewel. So it's really appreciated. So anything that we could be doing to strengthen that relationship with Nature as Teacher will be for the benefit of the community. The Watery River Veterans Park. We feel, and this gets back to optimizing existing investments. On one side, you have the paved trail. It's well used. It's well done. On the other side is a nature trail that is at best half completed. I really feel that that effort needs to be put into that trail to better groom it, get signage there, and possibly even restructure some areas of that nature trail. It's a neat facility to have both right there, side by side. The last one is the Bolton Branch Trail.

» This is a creek over that runs along the Camden Environmental Park, but that can go from Aaron Clough all the way to the river. There's a development going in there, but work is already, I should say, discussions have been underway to try to make some space available to do a trail there. But again, there's a lot more in the handout that I gave you. We were asked how county can help. I feel the county needs to make a strong commitment to enhance the network of trails in the county. It is in the comprehensive plan. Much of what we're talking about tonight is in the comprehensive plan, but it becomes a question of implementation, priorities, and then the execution. We're looking for that commitment.

» We want to, I recommend, or should say Casey Trails does, that we start discussions, county, city, towns, and inarrested groups to come together to have, let's say, a solid vision, and hopefully, at some point, a master plan for the network of trails across the county. That is in your comprehensive plan, but it's dated out, I think, 2025 or 2026. We'd recommend that that be moved up, to have that kind of group come together to lay out the basic parameters for what you can plan around. We'd also suggest making recreation and trail activities more visible on your website. It's not easy to get into the comprehensive plan. Many people look for it, never find it. It really makes sense to bring all of that information more forward.

» You know, as far as what we need from the public, you know, we're looking for support from the county, the towns, we're noting here, you know, we have 2,700 supporters on our website, or excuse me, our Facebook page, 2,700 followers, and we're gonna start mining those people for their desires and wishes, and we'll be putting those in front of county council too, because there is strong interest, I can assure you, strong interest to grow the network of trails in the county. I just want to close with a maxim that Dawn Staley uses with her ball players. She tells them, when you take the initiative, you are showing somebody you want more, and Casey Trails has been working hard for four years. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. If I may, Madam Chair. Yes, absolutely. Bob, excuse me.

» Bob and Tom, if you'll stay at the podium, please. Tom, thank you. Bob, thank you, this is good stuff, and I appreciate you bringing it and making me aware this map is absolutely wonderful, and I guess everybody knows where they can get this, if you would just repeat that, but this is some good stuff here, and I'll thank you for the effort and the time you all put into it, and I look forward to supporting y'all in any way we can. I know for a fact that some doctors have said exercise is probably as important or more important than your medication, so I think it's very important what y'all are doing. I really just am very impressed with it tonight. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Jimmy.

» I just add, along that line, there's ample research out there to show, everybody knows the advantage of the physical activity. Okay, you go out, you take a hike, you feel good, but actually, being out in nature and expending that energy, there's a multiplier effect in terms of mental health and brain function. We'll all be a lot smarter and better off the more we're out on the trails. I agree. I just wanted to also mention to you all the cover photo on both of these documents. If you didn't notice, it's Dobie's Mill Elementary School. This is a walking trail that's open to the public from dawn to dusk.

» It's absolutely gorgeous, it's shaded, there's places to sit and rest, and they're teaching kids the necessity of quality outdoor exercise, and so we picked that because, and also as a thank you to you all for the Open Community Use Program, which allows these resources, like a trail like that, to be used by the community. Thank you. Good, thank you. Thank you. Gentlemen, I have just a couple things, sorry. Anybody else up here? Thank you, I wanna give you kudos. Tom, you asked to meet with me, and I think I asked you, I said, okay, well, what do you need me to do? And you said, nothing, we're gonna do it. We just wanna let you know, so thank you for that. Keep us posted on the June youth camp so that we can put it out in our council briefs and also have some flyers up here. Mr.

» Templer, can we put this map at the Parks and Rec office, or can we keep them here? Like, how can we better coordinate with them to be partners? So I have a note to myself to look into that, as well as Nature as a Teacher, Leontia O'Rourke had asked if we could partner to maybe get their facility opened more than that one site. Okay, that was my next question. What can we do to do that more times a month? Is it a scheduling issue, or like someone needs to open the gate? It's a resource issue. You have to have people out there. Okay. You have to pay them to be there. Okay. So right now, Clemson can handle one day a month for six or seven months a year. Okay. We're looking for ways to fund a couple more days. Okay.

» I don't know exactly if we have a dollar amount, what it costs for a day, but we need to pay the people that are gonna be out and taking care of the place. Okay, thank you. Mr. Cato, did you have something? I was just gonna suggest that maybe if we could come up with a way to put this on the Kershaw County website. Oh, yeah. Mr. Templer, will we write that down? We'll work with Danny on that. Okay. Thank you. Gentlemen, thank you again. All right, back on the agenda. We're up to item number nine, approval of minutes. This is the Tuesday, April 9th, regularly scheduled meeting. Is there a motion pertaining to these minutes tonight? Madam Chair, I make a motion that we approve the minutes as submitted by Ms. Hanna. Okay. Mr. Tucker makes the motion to approve as submitted.

» Is there a second? I'll second. Okay, second by Mr. Cato. Any discussion? Just thank you, Ms. Hanna. All right. All those in favor of approving the Tuesday, April 9th, County Council minutes indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Jones, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay. All right, Ms. Hanna, we'll get those on the website and filed appropriately. All right. We are now up to item number 10, executive session for a legal matter, receipt of legal advice related to a potential claim covered by attorney-client privilege. Is there a motion to enter executive session at this time? Make a motion we enter executive session. Okay, Mr. Cato makes the motion. Is there a second? Second. Okay, Mr. Tucker with a second.

» Any discussion? Do we anticipate a vote when we come out on any Pacific? No, sir. No votes, okay. Thank you, great question. All right, all those in favor of entering executive session indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones, and Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. And let's keep it as short as we can, you know, get in there and get out. Great, county council is now in executive session. Chris, will you get... Is it on? Where's Madam Chair? She went out. Russell, are you gonna go find her right quickly? If not, I'll start the meeting back. Okay. Hey, yes, can y'all hear me? I'm on the phone. Yeah, we can hear you, bud. We'll just give you one second trying to locate Madam Chair. Sounds wonderful. I will be muting my phone.

» I'm currently in the upstate of South Carolina driving. So I'm gonna mute my phone until needed. Thank you. Oh, my apologies. I went to the bathroom. Mr. Tomlinson, are you back on? Brant, you there? Yes, sorry. Okay, no problem. Driving unhit mute, but I'm still being safe. Should I pull over? Obey the traffic laws, please, wherever you are. All right, council received legal advice related to a potential claim covered by attorney-client privilege. There'll be no vote. Is there a motion to come out of executive session at this time? Motion to move out of executive session. Okay, Mr. Brazel, with the motion, is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Tucker. And all those in favor, any discussion on coming out? Yes, Mr. Jones. Oh, no, I thought you called for the vote.

» I was reading and listening, thank you. No discussion here. All those in favor of coming out of executive session, back to regular session, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. All right, we're back in regular session. Up to item number 11, ordinances. The first ordinance tonight is a third reading on an ordinance of Kershaw County Council to amend the membership provisions for the Kershaw County Clean Community Commission by adding two at-large membership positions. Is there a motion pertaining to this ordinance tonight? Madam Chair, I make a motion that we accept this ordinance on third reading. Okay, Mr. Cato makes a motion to accept. Is there a second? I second. Okay, second by Mr.

» Shoemake. Mr. Cato, you have the floor. Do you have any discussion points? None that I hadn't already stated in the past, Madam Chair, so I just believe that this is the best way for us to go. Okay, any other discussion points, questions, concerns? Okay, all those in favor of the ordinance of Kershaw County Council to amend the membership provision for the Kershaw County Clean Community, you know what, Kershaw County Clean Community Commission, as I say it, something came to mind. I would like to discuss changing the name. So I talked to Jill Wolf in between meetings, and we did discuss this. And so before we take the vote, I do want to bring that into discussion.

» So her recommendation to council, which I am completely okay with, would be to remove Kershaw County Clean Community Commission, remove the word community, and just, they will go by the Kershaw County Clean Commission. Would that affect us, Madam Chair, with any grants? Because I know at one time, the name Kershaw Clean Community Commission was a statewide issue. That's a great question. Mr. DeBose, do you have any information on that? I do not, but I could look into it. Mr. Templer might perhaps. I don't mind supporting it. I just want to make sure we're not hurting it. Right, changing its identity. Wait and let the attorney's research. Well, that, your 5013C could be affected. So I don't think. Is it a 5013C? I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking these questions.

» And that's why I would not want to change anything tonight, but I'm happy to review it at a later date when we have more information to do it. Mr. DeBose. I didn't mean to catch you off Mr. Templer, I just. I was just going to say that we've had grants with Pomodoro Pride in the past, so we would just update any kind of name change. The name, okay. So nothing active now. Can we just kind of postpone this to the next meeting and let the attorney look at it and research it, make sure we're good to go. Yeah, I don't suspect it would be a problem, but I'd hate to tell y'all. Do we need three readings to change the name? Would we have to change? I think y'all have established it as that, via ordinance. Equal dignity rule would probably advocate that you should, but I mean. It's an ordinance.

» Okay, Mr. Kato, sorry you got cut off. I was going to ask him basically the same thing. Would it make sense? I don't want to delay anything, but would it make, if, could we make that as an amendment? In theory, could we make that name change as an amendment to this motion and avoid having to do a full three readings again? Yes, I mean, I think you could. Well, what I was thinking is. You make the change subject to it not affecting or. Well, no, I think, or we just wait a week. I just, to avoid having to do a whole new three readings, we could also wait one meeting, like defer this to next meeting. I mean, it's just two weeks without commission members and then we don't have to do three readings again.

» We can give them the two new members and the new name if we check into it, but I'll defer to you because this is kind of your thing. I don't want to. I'll withdraw my motion and make a motion that we table this to the next meeting. Defer, defer, I'm sorry. Quick, quick idea. If we go ahead and pass it and let the commission come up with their own nickname, they can call themselves whatever they like with branding and that sort of thing. Facebook post, I don't think anything that we do prohibits them from shortening the name. And I don't think, John, do you see any issue with that, sir? No, I mean, if they want to, as you were kind of referencing, they almost refer to themselves as a DBA or trade name.

» They can have shirts made with whatever name and we go ahead and pass it and get it done. Why is the rush? Because Russell, I'll be honest with you, I support them changing the name. I just want to make sure that we're okay. Yeah, I do too. I was just trying to help them get it done quicker. But why would it really matter if it's done a week or two weeks? I mean, just a question. I don't think there's anything urgent about it. Just looking for a solution. No, I don't think there's anything urgent. Just looking for a simple solution, that's all. And I appreciate that. I'm wrong a lot, so I'm probably wrong. I'm good either way. Only when you talk to me, but no, you're fine. So Mr. Cato, I'm gonna go to you. You made the initial motion.

» Motion to approve, withdraw your motion, or what would you like to do? I think I'll withdraw my motion. Okay. And just to make sure, just to be clear and make sure that we're on the right track before we do anything. I hate we looked over that. But I could make a motion that we defer this to, I guess it would be May 14th, is that correct? Is that the next meeting? I believe that's the next meeting date. It is. That is correct. Okay, motion to defer. Is there a second? Mr. Jones, second. Okay, any discussion on deferring? I think we made all our points. Okay, thank you, gentlemen, and thank you, Mr. Cato. I almost forgot to bring that up. But I do have trouble saying it every time, so. Thank you for catching it.

» Okay, all those in favor of deferring this third reading to the first meeting in May, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? Sorry, Madam Chair, I was on mute and driving. What's the vote for? Deferring the third reading of the ordinance to update the membership provisions to the Kershaw County Clean Community Commission. We're adding two at-large membership positions, but the discussion for deferment was that we might wanna update the name. I vote yes. Okay, all right, we'll have the third reading in May. Thank you, gentlemen. Next ordinance is another third reading.

» This is case 24-06, an ordinance to amend the official zoning map of Kershaw County to rezone approximately 4.9 acres of property owned by Joe and Cindy Smith located on the north side of Mill Creek Trace with addresses of 116 and 120 Mill Creek Trace, Elgin, South Carolina, from our 15 low-density residential district to our D2 rural resource district. Is there a motion pertaining to this ordinance? I would move that we adopt the ordinance at third reading. Okay, Mr. Shoemake moves to adopt. Second. Second by Mr. Brazel. And any discussion? Any updates from legal? No changes from second reading. Okay, all those in favor of passing the third reading of case 24-06, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Jones, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, Mr.

» Tomlinson, how do you vote? Madam Chair, I vote yes. Okay, all right, that rezoning passes. Next ordinance, third reading, case 24-08, an ordinance to amend the official zoning map of Kershaw County to rezone approximately 6.3 acres of property owned by Andrew Collins and located on the west side of Smyrna Road with an address of 1147 Smyrna Road, Elgin, South Carolina, from MRD-1 Rural Resource District to RD-2 Rural Resource District. Is there a motion pertaining to this ordinance? I move that we adopt it on third reading. Okay, motion made, Mr. Shoemake, is there a second? Second, Madam Chair. Second by Mr. Tucker, any discussion? Any changes in anything, Mr. DeBose? No changes from second reading. Okay, all those in favor of- Give an explanation, please. Mr.

» DeBose, can you give us a brief on this one? Yeah, this is the rezoning that is intended to allow a single wide manufactured home to be placed on this property. The current zoning district only allows for a double wide home. I believe this is also the matter where directly across the street, the zoning districts allow for those single wide manufactured homes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. DeBose. All those in favor of the third reading of case 24-08, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, and Mr. Jones. Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay, that passes third reading. Next, case 24-10, third reading.

» In ordinance to amend the Kershaw County Unified Code of Zoning and Land Development Regulations to remove table 5-10 and amend chapter 5, section 3.8-3 and chapter 5, section 3.8-6 to update and clarify road design standards by reference and incorporation of design criteria and standards of the South Carolina Asphalt Pavement Association, SCAPA. Is there a motion pertaining to this ordinance? Madam Chair, I'd like to make a motion to amend. Okay, motion to amend. Go ahead, Mr. Brazel. Thank you.

» I move to amend the ordinance to update and clarify road design standards by reference and incorporation of design criteria and standards of the South Carolina Asphalt Pavement Association to allow for an asphalt layer of less than three and a half inches if the road design is certified by a geotechnical engineer. As meeting the standards for the Society of American Civil Engineering, the asphalt layer shall be no less than two inches even when approved by an engineer. I furthermore move that we restrict asphalt sub-bases to conventional aggregate bases, which traditionally have been successful in the construction of roads and highways. This would lead to the removal of soil cement sub-bases as an appropriate structural foundation for asphalt roads. Right, thank you.

» Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Jones. Mr. Brazel, you have the floor. So after we saw pictures that Administrator Templar brought us of cracked asphalt, and it was, I think, a two-inch asphalt with a cement soil sub-base. So after many phone calls and talking with some old friends that I went to college with, I found someone who is an engineer, and not a civil engineer, but a geotechnical engineer. And he studies roads and asphalt, and he stamps plans, and that's what he does. He said he'd be happy to come meet with us if we'd ever wanted to hear from him. And my question was, I don't know what soil cement is. And he said, well, it works fine when done correctly, but it helps roads be built faster, quicker. The construction process moves along quicker.

» What they do is they mix a cement with the dirt that's on the site. And if it's dry by morning, they can apply a layer of asphalt. If they apply the layer of asphalt before it's correctly cured, if it's done incorrectly, if it doesn't have enough cement, then it could crack. I said, well, could it crack if it were a three and a half inch layer of asphalt? He said, absolutely, it's gonna translate from the sub base through to the asphalt. So what this amendment does, it allows an expert in the field, which I am not, to approve a standard that may be different than what we think is the correct fix. I want a solution, I don't want a standard. Now, this option will incur a cost. They'll have to hire a civil or geotechnical engineer. They'll have to do core samples.

» This practice is done in Richland and Lexington counties. Furthermore, removing the non-conventional sub base, I think would keep us from having these issues. What we look for solutions, we don't wanna just add cost. So in order to paint the entire county's soil types, with the three and a half inches, we are at least giving them an option to have an engineer inspect it, make sure it's done correctly, and up to our standards. And Administrator Templar gave me some core boyings from roads around the county that we're having a lot of trouble with. And you can confirm this for me. Some of them were less than one inch of asphalt. They need to be at least two inches. They need to be at least two inches.

» And three and a half is certainly the best or better, but it all depends on the sub base and the subsoil and how it's compacted, so. Well, may I say something, Mr. Broussell? Yes, Mr. Jones. I'd like to do one thing, Russell Broussell. He has put many hours into this. You know, every area of this county is different. The soil is different at the lake. The soil is different in Casset than Lugoff. So to have a 3.5 inch, to me it's just unfair. But what you've done here, Mr. Broussell, is that you've done your research. You've proven your point. I think you make a valid point. I did not vote yes last time on this ordinance, but I am gonna vote yes on this, because I think this is reasonable. And I appreciate what you did, and I know you put hours into it. But thank you very much.

» Gives us all a clear understanding. And to be clear, I think this accomplishes what administration's looking for with a standard of three and a half inches. Yet we still give everyone latitude to employ an engineer and bring their case to the county. And I think that's a fair option. Blanket mandate, yeah, thank you. Can I ask the county, so obviously this is a tool that you brought for us. Can I ask, just sort of as a tool with, you know, as the administrator, I'm just curious your take on this. So, yes, sir. And back to the borings, we wanted to go out and see what we had on the menu, if you will, for CTC to resurface and just see how much cover was, how much asphalt was, what the thickness was. Those 10 borings, I think the smallest was a half inch.

» The largest we had was an inch and a half. So, what? Are you saying of asphalt? Of asphalt. No wonder they're crumble, right? So this is what we're trying to avoid. And this is what I don't think the taxpayers should have to be saddled with. These roads, they're just gonna fail prematurely. We have some roads that are essentially dust. And I'll have an engineer come up, if Steven will come up and kind of speak to this. He works with CTC and he sees this on a consistent basis of how these roads fail. So there's roads that need to be resurfaced, but then there's roads that have failed and they are essentially just dust. There's really nothing you can patch and it's just chunks of asphalt.

» But the ordinance that was proposed for three and a half inches wouldn't have worked either because obviously they were going less than two inches because there was no inspection or no awareness that it was happening. And that's the only reason they got by with a half inch or they got by with an inch or less than two inches. You know, we don't have the manpower, I realize that. I'm not blaming anybody, but it's just the facts. You know, they did it, we weren't aware that they did it but that's not a reason just to go to three and a half across the board, you know, because every area in this county is different. The soil is different. And, you know, it could be three and a half there but it was still been a half inch because we weren't, nobody called it. Thank you.

» I think with what I'm seeing here with these core samples on Grasmere Lane at a half inch, it just strikes me that the developer is potentially going to attempt to get away with what they can. A half inch, that's just, it's below substandard. So three and a half to me, it creates a standard that's just gonna be tough to scoot by. Don't we have a two inch standard now? We do. But that's what I'm saying. We got a two inch standard now. They did a half inch. We'd had a three and a half inch standard under what we're doing now.

» They'd have still had a half inch standard because it's obvious that they tried to save money and slip it on us and I commend y'all for finding it and I wanna help y'all find the solution but I don't wanna do a three and a half inch across the board for everybody in this county. I think Mr. Broussles brought a tremendously good option to the table with his amendment to be fair to everyone in this county, not just have a blanket. So keeping in mind that the standard will be three and a half inches and the developer will have to go to greater lengths to have it amended to two inches.

» That gives them the opportunity to prove to you what we're doing is right, we feel like we've got a proper sub base and then it gives our engineering team opportunity to inspect prior to the asphalt being poured and inspect afterwards. I'm of the opinion that more is always better but if we're getting three quarters of an inch, one inch versus two inches, if we can guarantee and it may come back in any given case that three and a half inches is certainly what's needed. Maybe they say it's four and a half inches if it's a poor, unsuitable soil. We don't know, we're not the experts. But I just want the engineering firm to have the opportunity if that's what the developer so desires. And I wanna keep our three and a half inch standard.

» If they're fine with that, there's no argument, then that's what it'll be. But we let the professionals handle what they do for a living. So I would like to hear if there's a disagreement on that because you make perfect sense. I'd like to hear why. Well, I'd like, so I mean, Mr. Templer, I mean, I'm curious where you stand on this as a tool for administration as amended. Well, before I answer that, let me just have the engineer speak to what we have. And we have been holding developers more recently two, three and a half inches. So we've had that application put down. And when we've gone with two inches on top of soil cement, again, it's a substandard base. Every soil cement road we've had put in has now had an extended warranty on it. So I- Say that again. Mr.

» Templer, two inches on non-soil cement, what about that? Because that's what he's proposing. If it's approved- We make people do. If it's approved by an engineering firm. So what he just said, and I want everybody to hear this, every road that we've had problems with, not every road, but every soil cement sub base we've had trouble with. And that's the reasoning for the latter in this amendment is to take that out of the cards, right? We take the joker out of the cards because it's cost us nothing but trouble. And that's what we're here to do is we're here to solve problems, right? Agreed. But we've also had just poor applications. My goal here is to not have something that our staff that is underfunded, undermanned to have to go out and patch and patch because it's failed.

» So in five years, when everybody's gone, the warranty is gone. It's now Kershaw County's road to fix. And I'll be honest with you, there's just with some of the smaller builders, I've not been impressed with some of the roads we're getting. So my goal here is to set a standard that goes from edge to edge of the county. Two inches to me is, I don't think it's enough. I have a question. If builders wanna come in and claim that they wanna make a quality product, if they wanna come in here and contribute to Kershaw County, well then show it. Build good infrastructure that everybody else in Kershaw County is not gonna have to foot the bill with CTC money and road fees. Listen, I agree with what you're saying, but Mr.

» Temple, I'll go back to the fact that the half inch roads or the one inch road, you could have had a three and a half inch standard, they would have still put a half an inch or what, because obviously they were trying to beat the system with a two inch standard we have. So I'm not disagreeing to work with you on that. What I'm disagreeing on the proposal for last meeting is that it's just a blanket. And we all know, and I'm not an engineer, I'm not as smart as my gentleman up here, but bottom line, I mean I have been told and I know that soils are different, so why would we wanna make somebody do a three and a half, but he's given them the option in this amendment to hire a geotech engineer to come out and look at it and if it's warranted, it's warranted, but.

» And to what we discussed earlier, the administrator, the only reason I brought the two inches into it, you said you didn't want anything less than that. Absolutely, even if someone approved it. My original amendment didn't have that in it. You can see where I hand wrote it in it because I was trying to protect Kershaw County and the employees of Kershaw County. My original amendment states that to allow for an asphalt layer of less than three and a half inches if the road design is certified by a geotechnical engineer as meeting the standards of the American Civil Engineering Society. So that could have been three inches per the geotechnical engineer. So I just, I'm not trying to undermine what you're trying to do for the county. I think what you're trying to do is wonderful.

» Let's set the standard at three and a half inches. I don't know that you'll be challenged and somebody's got to put their name on the line in order to challenge you. Well, the standard's been two inches, Mr. Browse, it's been two inches and they've still been putting a half an inch down. So what would stop them from, if it's three and a half inches, putting an inch down. An engineer is putting his name on the line when he uses his stamp. Yeah. They're not going to approve something. I understand. That they can't put their name behind. So in the spirit of capitalism and freedom, I just thought we would add that language. Mr. Staley. Yes.

» Can we get your opinion please on this amendment? Keeping the minimum of 3.5, but if the developer hires these geotechnical engineers and can prove that the soil is different from wherever they're doing, to go to a lower standard and your opinion on removing the asphalt sub base and restricting it to the aggregate base, please. Madam Chair, Stephen Staley here. County engineer, Kershaw County. I made a few, I'm definitely not a polished speaker by no means. But I did make some points I wanted to bring up with y'all and so the asphalt itself is the, its main purpose is to protect the base course. The actual base is, if you get cracks in the asphalt, it transcends down into the stone base and then you start getting alligator cracking and all that.

» I think about asphalt, it's a wearing surface kind of like the treads on your tires. You can buy a cheap tire might get you 30,000 miles or you can buy more expensive tire and get you 80,000 miles. That's kind of what the asphalt is. It's a wearing surface. While a geotechnical engineer can do the calculations to get two inches to meet the strength for the asphalt, it won't get you a 20-year roadway life, meaning you will have to do resurfacing before the 20 years is as it shows in our standards now. That's one, that's how you get to three and a half inches is a 20-year roadway life. And it's kind of, when do you want to, if you use two inches, you're gonna probably resurface in 10 years. If you use three and a half inches, you're gonna resurface in 20 years or so.

» Again, about the paving contractors, they're not too exact. That's not exact science with them. So in some areas, if you specify two inches, you might get 2.2. In other areas, you might get 1.8 just because it's not exact and then you're below the standard. Then you're below the two inches. You don't meet the strength coefficient and your road cracks. Then going back to the SCAPA, SCAPA standard does eliminate the soil cement. It doesn't have it in there at all for base cores. But it does allow for a geotechnical engineer to sample the soil and determine what the thickness of the base should be, whether it should be four inches, six inches, eight inches. But the three and a half inches is what you have to get to get the 20-year roadway life.

» I got some numbers from the CTC and our public works department before I came in here. Based on their numbers, they have limited funding for roadway resurfacing. Per year, the county can do about one to two miles of resurfacing with that money, which is not a lot considering how many roads are coming into the system every year. So that's just kind of some high points I think I would want to bring to y'all's attention. And I'm happy to answer any questions. Can you tell me when Willbrook subdivision off of Highway 34 in Lugoff was repaved? No, sir. I don't think it has been. Okay. I built a house in there. I was the second home in 2002 to be built. Now I do know that they did have a pothole, probably due to a stump in the road. Yeah, now the potholes aren't the 10-year life.

» You're gonna have potholes after maybe a year or two. You might have a pothole or two, but not a full-blown resurfacing. So that was 22 years ago. My point is I think I appreciate what we're trying to do here. We're trying to improve quality. I am a quality individual all my life. I've been in a job where quality matters. But I do think at some point we should let the professionals that live in this world every day have some say so and not paint everything with this broader brush. I try to find middle ground in what I do, sir. Understand. I think we agree with one another that three and a half inches is better. And the reason why it's better is you can take two inches off. You can mill two inches off and you still got an inch and a half base. And then you can reapply.

» Yeah, that's another good point. Having two lifts of asphalt, when you put two inches down on top of the base, because the base is not really smooth, that first layer kind of smooths it out and gives it a more smooth surface. Then when you come and put the second lift of asphalt on it, it's really smooth. So if you see a road with two inches on six, it's gonna be a little more bumpy than a road with two inches and an inch and a half on top of it. It'll be really smooth, which everybody likes a smooth roadway. I'd like to get half a lift on I-95. How about you? Anybody been down that road lately? Chunks of concrete falling out. Listen, I made the proposal. Let's put it to a vote and I'm not gonna be dissatisfied or upset with anybody. Thank you for the commentary. Mr.

» Staley, if you'll stay right there, please. Mr. Tucker. Thank you, Madam Chair. So this is actually a question that even Mr. Staley, Mr. Temple or Mr. DeBose, in the current ordinance, the way it's written, where is it at as far as what the base can be consisted of? Because I see the thickness, but whereas it says that the, what do you call it? Material? Yeah, but I'm trying to call the name. The sub-base. Yeah, where's that at in here? Because I do like that second part of that amendment where we eliminate the oil sub-base from... I don't think we have any restrictions. Yeah, from the soil cement sub-base. So as drafted, table 510 is being removed and it had different base types within that chart.

» The SCAPA standards that are being incorporated basically have different bases based on different soil types and those standards end up prescribing the entire pavement thickness design, the pavement profile. Mr. Staley can certainly speak to the technicalities of it better, but those designs would be in the incorporated SCAPA standards. And I guess, let me rephrase the question. In SCAPA, do they use a soil concrete sub-base? That's what I need to know. No, sir. Is it allowed? Is it allowed in Kershaw County today? It is allowed in Kershaw County today. The intention in this amendment is to disallow it. And SCAPA, if you adopt SCAPA standards, that does it also. That's what I'm asking. Yes, it's not in there. That disallows it completely. But also your amendment disallows it as well.

» Well... And your amendment is exactly what Richland County and Lexington County use. They have a whole lot more traffic than we do and it works for them. And when this was presented to us, it would have been great to have had all that knowledge that we just gained. Yeah, yeah. And I made a... I worked for Richland County for eight years and we just adopted SCAPA. I'm sorry. Yeah, but we just adopted SCAPA recently and they did a modified SCAPA where they set the standard at three and a half for the asphalt thickness and just like what we're proposing today. Yeah, so their standard allows a geotechnical engineer to come in if they want to do less than three and a half inches. Is that true or not true? Not true. Not true in Richland County. Lexington County? They set a minimum.

» I'm not sure about Lexington. So what I was told, and I could have been told wrong, that Richland and Lexington Counties adopted something very similar to this. And that's how I put it together. So... Yeah, I'm not really sure about Lexington but I know I worked on it for Richland County for the last three years. I have a question. So what's proposed... I'm sorry. Mr. Stater, what's gonna prevent a builder from doing three and a half inches and doing a half inch if two inches, they're doing a half inch and we don't catch it? What level of inspection do we have? Yeah, we obviously are. And we're ramping up inspections in the next year budget. We've got another person coming, hopefully have another person, another inspector coming on right now next year's budget.

» Right now we have just basically two, Dan Canty and Benny Clyburn. But you understand my point, Mr. Salie. It's not about three and a half inches. It's about we got a standard two inches and yet they were putting a half inch down or an inch down. We didn't catch that. So we're gonna raise the three and a half inches. How are we gonna catch the three and a half if we're not catching the two? Mr. Cato. And you had one example. I asked for 10. They had one example of a crack road. And Russell did a lot of research on this and I appreciate that. And Russell, I support your amendment wholeheartedly. Mr. Cato. So when did Richland County adopt? And you're saying they adopted this ordinance that's proposed to us tonight. When did they adopt it? It's gaffer standards. Let's see.

» I left there and I started here April 23, 22, probably July 21. And this is putting you on the spot. Do you know about how many counties probably use the same? I don't know for sure. Or any other counties that may use? I think a lot of them will go into this because it makes things so simple. As far as the calculations go, you still need a geotechnical engineer to come on board and determine what kind of sub-base you have so you know how thick to make the base course. But there are no cases at less than three and a half inches to get the 20-year roadway life, which we won't. But we're gonna increase the standard and yet the reason we haven't been meeting a lot of standards is because there hasn't been the inspection to catch the roads and they were cheating us on the roads.

» I just don't see we're creating more bureaucracy for the citizen. And there's no guarantee that a geotechnical engineer is gonna say two inches is enough. So I think we could be kind of beating a dead horse here. Yeah, it's hypothetical. I would like to say let the professionals do their jobs and put a good product in Kershaw County. That's what I'm trying to pass here. I'm not trying to paint a picture of we wanna pass the minimum. We wanna pass what's right for the right property in the right location at the right time. And I'd honestly kind of like to make sure that the geotechnical engineer has oversight of the asphalt layer that's applied. And I'd also like to see that inspections and borings are done on every job that we have here in Kershaw County.

» What's the company, Teracon? Don't they do that? Teracon, FME, SME. So couldn't we work with one of those to spot check? Yes, sir, and we do. So apparently we missed a few in the past. Now that may have been a previous administration. That was before me and that was before you. But what we're talking about is moving forward, holding ourselves accountable to standards that work. Not necessarily defining that wholeheartedly. Working with engineers. Makes perfect sense. And I want the engineer to tell me because if it's wrong, he's wrong. They don't like to be wrong at all. They know that people's lives hang in their designs. So whether it's a road or a bridge or a structure, we depend on them every day. Mr. Basel, thank you. And thank you for all your research on this. Mr.

» DeBose, is there any problem with putting in, I understand that if adopted, the SCAPA criteria does include his second amendment, but is there any problem with putting it in our ordinance, just so people know, because none of us knew up here that SCAPA included that. So I'd like, if we're gonna make a change like this, if it passes, the public to clearly know that that's gonna change. I don't think having some redundancy is fatal. Is that okay with you, Mr. Basel? The rest of the council? I mean, I had no idea that adopting SCAPA got rid of the soil cement. Neither did I. So if we didn't know, I'm sure the public, unless they're reading SCAPA criteria books. Okay, any other items for discussion? Thank you, Mr. Basel. I'll absolutely support the amendment.

» Thank you for thinking outside the box instead of doing a blanket rule over the whole county. And it does sound like this meets the intent of the county as well. And you can come back to us at any time too if it's not working, we can. Well, we gotta catch it, make sure they do. Right. Okay. All those in favor? Hang on, Jimmy, let me read it. All right, so we'll make sure we have the guidance.

» All right, all those in favor of the third reading of case 24-10, this is an ordinance to amend Kershaw County Unified Code of Zoning and Land Development Regulations to adopt the South Carolina Asphalt Pavement Association Standards, also known as SCAPA, as amended to allow for an asphalt layer of 3.5 inches if the road design is certified by a geotechnical engineer as meeting the standards of the American Civil Engineering Society and adding the language that we restrict asphalt sub-bases to conventional aggregate bases. Indicate by raising your hand. This is voting on the amendment. Yes. Gotcha. Okay, Mr. Basel, myself, Mr. Jones. Mr. Tomlinson? I vote no. Okay, Mr. Tomlinson votes no. The amendment. Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Tucker.

» I'd like to make a motion that we accept, to approve the third reading of case 24-10 on the ordinance at 3.5 inches. Okay, motion to approve the third reading on case 24-10 as presented. And what I was about to say is the motion to amend failed. Now we are, now there's a motion to the third reading as presented in tonight's agenda packet, case 24-10. Madam Chair, I'd like to make a different amendment. Go ahead. Is there, hold on, is there, Mr. Tucker made a motion to approve as presented on third reading. Is there a second? I would second. Okay, second by Mr. Shoemake. Into discussion. And Mr. Basel, go ahead with your motion. I would like to strike the word less for my amendment and resubmit it. Because at least it solves the problem of the sub-base. And I know that for sure. I second.

» Okay, Mr. Basel makes a motion. And I'm gonna read the motion again, just so we're all on the same page. Mr. Basel makes a motion to amend the ordinance to update and clarify road design standards by reference and corporation of design criteria and standards of the South Carolina Asphalt Pavement Association, SCAPA, to allow for an asphalt layer of 3.5 inches if the road design is certified by a geotechnical engineer as meeting the standards of American Civil Engineering Society. Is that accurate? Then the rest. I furthermore move that we restrict asphalt sub-bases to conventional aggregate bases, which traditionally have been successful in the construction of roads and highways.

» This would lead to the removal of soil cement sub-bases as appropriate structural foundations for asphalt roads. Can I ask a question? Yeah, of course. So if I'm understanding what your amendment is doing, it's basically just, it's setting a basement of 3.5 inches. Is that how I understand that? That's the asphalt layers, 3.5 inches. I just conceded to your no vote. Okay. Wait a minute. We're in discussion on the amendment. You conceded to his no vote. I conceded to his no vote of letting a geotechnical engineer approve anything less than 3.5 inches, but I codified the fact that we won't be stricken with sub-par bases moving forward. Okay. But it's a flat, so you're supporting a flat 3.5 across the board. It's gonna pass regardless. I don't care. I'm not gonna vote for it.

» I don't agree with it. I would second. I'm absolutely not gonna vote for it. What I'm gonna gain out of it is the fact that these sub-bases won't be sub-par, and I wanna prove to my colleagues that I'm able to work with others. I wanna prove to my colleagues that I stand by what I think to end up. Thank you, but I withdraw my second. I would second. Okay, there's no, all right. But I appreciate everything you've done, Mr. President. Yes, sir. You're welcome, sir. Okay, Mr. Shoemake seconds. Okay, any other discussion on the amendment? Okay, all those in favor of the amendment to the original ordinance 24-10, which is the same amendment that was, that did not pass, only now we are saying to allow an asphalt layer of 3.5 inches and no change to the rest of the amendment.

» Indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Russell, Mr. Shoemake, myself. Mr. Cato, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay, and all those opposed? Mr. Tucker and Mr. Jones? A big fat absolutely no. Okay, this amendment passes. Now we're back up to the original ordinance as presented with the incorporated amendment language. Any discussion? Okay, all those in favor of third reading of case 24-10 as amended, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Shoemake, myself. Mr. Cato, and opposed? Mr. Jones, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay, all right, third reading passes as amended. Next ordinance. Up to echo, right? Are we gonna get a presentation on the budget? We are not. We need some information, won't we? Oh, found it. All right, ordinance.

» First reading of the Kershaw County fiscal year 25, budget and title only. Is there a motion to approve, a motion pertaining to this ordinance? Madam Chair, I'd like to make a proposal that we read first reading and title only of a 24, 25th year budget. Okay, Mr. Tucker makes a motion to approve in title only of the budget. Is there a second? I'll second. Second by Mr. Shoemake. And into discussion, Mr. Tucker. Thank you, Madam Chair. I know some of y'all are looking around asking where is your paperwork, but it's in title only, and we do not have any information ready for presenting tonight. We will have it in second reading in detail. And the finance committee is meeting this Friday, I think at 3.30. Is it Friday or Wednesday? Friday.

» You should have met before this first reading in title only. Well, you know, shoulda, coulda. Some of us work. So we did meet here. We did have about seven meetings. Well, you're voting for something you know nothing about tonight. Mr. Jones, you have voted for more in title only budgets than most people have been sitting here. So this is not new to you. I have not voted for a title only. Yes, you have. That's the only thing you vote for because you don't vote for the budget. No, no, not when I don't agree with it. Hey, listen, may I say something? Yes. I guess I'm talking anyway. You know, we have the, like with the powers and duties of the administrator, we have the duties of the administrator to include but not be limited to the following.

» That's to prepare an annual operating capital improvement budget. You know, I just can't vote for something I can't see. Why are we even having three readings if the first reading is just always in title only? There's nothing. I'd be happy if we just had a blank, just a flat balanced budget in front of us. And I know Mr. Temple has been working very hard on the budget, no question, but he's doing what we've allowed him to do, what we've allowed every administrator to do. I just don't agree with it. Thank you, Mr. Jones. I want to see something if I'm gonna vote on it. I'm not voting on this. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Any other comments? Quite welcome. Discussion. I appreciate the finance committee's hard work and the meetings you have had. I have a fundamental issue with first reading.

» I believe the state law, the spirit of the state law is to have three separate readings of a passage of legislation. I understand that it's completely legal and okay, and it's widely used title only. I just have a fundamental problem with it. So I can't support it. It's not anything to do with the finance committee. I do agree with Mr. Jones that if we're gonna vote on something, the public should be able to read it and we should be able to as well. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. All those in favor of the first reading of the Kershaw County fiscal year 25 budget in title only indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Cato, Mr. Shoemake and Mr. Tucker, all those opposed. Mr. Jones, myself and Mr. Brazel. Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay. All right, passes first reading.

» On second reading, there will be a full budget for the public and this council to review. Correct. Right, next ordinance. This is the first reading of an ordinance to amend the Kershaw County, South Carolina, unified code of zoning and land development regulations section three, 1.3, table three dash four, to amend and increase the minimum lot size required for all residential housing use types to no less than 21,780 square feet and to amend the method of calculation for minimum lot sizes for single family attached use types and multi-family apartment use types by requiring a lot size of 21,780 square feet and an additional 7,500 square feet of lot size for each additional, for each dwelling unit after the first dwelling unit.

» Is there a motion at this time? I would make a motion that we approve first reading. Okay, motion made by Mr. Shoemake. Is there a second? I'd like to make a motion. Go ahead. Okay, Mr. Cato with the second and Mr. Shoemake, you have the floor. Yeah, I know Mr. Brazel has an amendment. I would like to just give kind of an overview. If that's all right, Mr. Brazel, do that first. Hasn't heard his amendment yet. No, no, an overview of the overall ordinance before he makes the amendment. But yeah, in fairness to the public, before we discuss his amendment, he would need to stand. No, no, I was just saying, I didn't know if we wanted to do his amendment first or to have, I was just gonna do an overview. I yield to the gentleman from Elgin.

» So basically what this table does at the present time is you're not on mute, Brant. So what- Goodness gracious, that was funny. Sorry, guys. What this amendment does is it brings the minimum lot size up to a half acre in all units. What it also does is it takes for the multifamily units, for example, like a townhome, you'd have half acre for the first living unit and then 7,500 square feet for each additional living unit. That basically, what that basically results in is a density of 3.93 for multifamily units and a density of two. So for example, if you had two acres of land, you could put any number of townhomes, for example, that would equal seven over two acres. So this is not requiring massive plots of land.

» I mean, a good example is that is on two acres, you would be able to put two structures of townhomes that would equal seven units. You'd be able to do that, or yeah, seven units over two acres. So this still allows for a lot of different use and I wanna also point out, because it was brought up, it was mentioned a few times today that this is something this council's been working on for months. It began with a minimum lot size increase to a three fourth acre, but it was certainly my intent as one of the people who brought this to gradually expand into the half acre. So this is something we've been talking about for some time. This is sort of the final piece of that plan. I would also like to note that we are rewriting our ZLDR. So this is something that will be revisited next year.

» I would say this is a measure to handle some of the major issues we're having with growth, with school overcrowding, with infrastructure issues. Every department head that spoke to the finance committee during this budget cycle talked about increased call volumes. Sheriff's department talked about increased calls. Fire department talked about increased calls. Even the probate judge talked about the massive increase in deaths because older people are moving here, older people. We all die sometime and they come here to do that. So you're seeing an increase in every single department as a result of massive residential growth. I would say it's near the level and is on the cusp of the level of being a crisis, if not a crisis already.

» So that's why it requires our action, which has been very deliberative and planned. So that's the basic gist of what this amendment is. Thank you, Mr. Schumank. Any other comments, concerns, discussion for the amendment? Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Brezel. I'm over here trying to learn how to use this calculator on my iPhone. So as amended, if I had 250 acres, I'd be able to build, let's walk through this math. 250 acres at 43,560 square feet per acre is 10,890,000 square feet. In order to build a townhome on my property or a townhome community, I would have to take 21,780 square feet for the initial building and to add the first town hall with the zero lot line, 7,500 square feet plus another 7,500 square feet and another 7,500 square feet. That would give me one unit with four townhomes in it.

» The total acreage needed is 1.02 acres for this four townhome unit. So on my 250 acres of developable land, I would have 980 townhomes on that property under this proposed law, which is less than what is on the books now. Are those numbers accurate? Does anybody wanna dispute those numbers? No, those numbers are accurate. There's another way to do it that gets to your same number. All right, well, let me continue. Let's do it the right way. Yeah. All right, Mr. Brezel has the floor. Sir. Point of order. Yes, Mr. Jones. Madam Chair, you need to take control. If you wanna recognize the general speak. I will not recognize anyone at the audience at this time. Mr. Brezel, you have the floor.

» To be clear, crystal clear, my statement was of developable land, which in my mind had already accounted for roads and drainage and that's what I think. So that's what could be built. Now, I would like to make an amendment for this first reading. Madam Chair, may I make my amendment? Yes, absolutely. In ordinance to amend Kershaw County Unified Code of Zoning and Land Development Regulations, section 3.13, table 3-4, to amend and increase the minimum lot size for all residential single family housing use types to no less than 21,780 square feet. That will be a half an acre for single family use homes.

» And to leave the calculation for minimum lot sizes for single family attached use types, also known as town homes, and multi-family use types, also known as apartments, at the minimum lot size is 15,000 square feet for the first dwelling and 5,000 square feet for each additional dwelling. In lieu of growing the lot sizes for single family attached types, town homes, and multi-family use types, apartments, I suggest that they represent no more than 10% of the developable acreage on any major subdivision. That is my amendment. Represent no more than 10% of any one subdivision. All right, is there a second for that amendment? Second. Second by Mr. Jones. All right, Mr. Russell, or Mr. Russell, Mr. Basile, you have the floor. Would anybody like to hear the math in how that would develop? Mr.

» Basile, I don't need to hear the math. I appreciate the amendment. Town homes and multi-family use are typically high density, and I'm in agreeance that they probably need to stay high density. I don't want to back us into a corner where we lose town homes and apartments in Kershaw County, because one of our issues in our current Rewrite of Comprehensive Plan is there's not enough diversity of housing. So that's another thing we talk about up here. So we are charged with balancing growth issues and having housing diversity for all, because not everybody is going to be able to build on three fourths acre, a half acre lot, and some people choose to live in town homes or have to. I want that to be available in Kershaw County, so I appreciate the intent.

» I would like to explain to everyone my thought process. Whether you agree or disagree, I'd like for you to listen. If a property's gonna be developed, wouldn't it be nice if your aging parents could live in a town home just down the street from your nice home on a half acre lot? Now we don't want to see a thousand or more town homes crammed onto a piece of property, but wouldn't it be nice if you had a neighborhood like an old community in which there were children playing, grandparents interacting with children, and that we can take care of our aging parents as middle-aged humans. There's only so much that we can do to change density, to slow development, but we can't ask for quality development. And this brings a balance.

» Under this proposal, if I were to develop 250 acres, and 10% of it could be town homes or apartments, that would give me 25 acres to work with. So it's kind of like a PDD potentially, only. So it's allowing people to do that. And it's given clear definition. 15,000 square feet for my first building plus 5,000 square feet for each additional townhouse. So I would need 30,000 square feet to build that unit, 68 hundredths of an acre. So I can take 25 acres and divide it by 68 hundredths. That would give me 36 units. I could build 147 townhouses, own my 250 acres. That would leave me with 125 acres to develop into half acre single family homes. I could build 250 single family homes. So the total is around 300. I'm sorry, it's around 400. And one quick question, Mr. Brazel.

» Sorry, is that also including streets, green spaces, retention ponds and everything else? We were using a fictitional piece of property that had all that accounted for, yes. My point in all this is trying to think outside of a box that doesn't punish the small developer and or builder and lends fairness to someone who wants to develop their property because I certainly believe in civil rights and property rights. As much as lots of people would love to see certain properties saved, there are ways to do that. What I'm looking for in Kershaw County for Elgin, for Lugoff, for Camden, and all the surrounding areas out to Bethune in North Central is those properties become developed in 20 to 30 years. That'll happen. I'm looking for reasonable development, reasonable growth.

» And I think this threads a needle if my colleagues have open ears and open hearts. That is all. So I have a few things if I may. Yes, Mr. Schiff. First off, I don't entirely agree with the amendment, but I will say that I fully understand where you're coming from. And I think, fundamentally, I think we have very aligned goals. It's a question of how we get there. I like the cap. I'm fully supportive of the idea of the cap and the major subdivisions. What I do have concerns with is bringing that lower density acreage, which results in, or lower lot size acreage, which results in higher density in the, which results in higher density in the general development. So, I mean, that's my issue. I mean, I think your math is right.

» And by the way, just FYI, just kind of an easy kind of cheat way to do it with the maximum densities 3.93 per acre. So if you had 250 fully buildable acres, you can just multiply 3.93 by 250, gets 982 point, whatever. So I mean, your math's right. It's just kind of a shortcut way to get there. So you are wrong. I mean, your proposal in a major development, I think, makes total sense. I'm fully behind the cap. What I'm having, what I'm struggling with is the density of the density, the issue of the density. And again, the reason I'm seeming somewhat equivocal is I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to pour water on it or say it's a horrible idea, because I think that, I mean, you clearly thought about it. I've obviously thought about my side of it. I think we're just kind of, you know.

» Well, the end result is clearly 580 less units. Yeah, I support the cap. So the cap I can support, it's the increase in the density. If we don't leave the density alone, you're probably down to 340 or 350. See, that's why architects design houses different shapes and sizes, is so that they can utilize land differently. And that's specifically why I have put more thought into this than you could ever imagine. Oh, again, I mean, and the cap makes sense. I think the cap exposes a problem. I just, let me ask you this.

» Tell me why, what is your opposition, and maybe I just didn't understand it, but what is sort of, what is the rationale? I think I understand Chairwoman Gwen's point, but what in your thought is the rationale for keeping the minimum lot size for the multi, because what, let me step back. It creates this. If you own two or three acres, you're gonna have, and you do townhomes, you're gonna be able to do maximum density. So you take two separate acres of land. This would stay 6.71. So on two separate acres of land, one person, if they were doing single family homes, could do two dwelling units.

» And on this other acre over here under your amendment, with one acre, that person could do 6.7 units, as opposed to the old, this new ordinance, that'd be 3.93, and it basically adds an extra three dwelling units potential for things that aren't major subdivisions. And I'm just curious what the rationale is. I mean, I'm truly asking. This isn't me trying to poke holes. It's an honest question. No, no, no, I love the question, because I'll answer it. I grew up in a house that depended on that small builder, so my dad could build some cabinets when he got off his shift at DuPont, so we could have a little bit of extra money. And he worked for those small builders. He worked for those small builders in Kershaw County.

» Do you know why those builders were here, Derek? They were here because in the 1940s, we welcomed DuPont with open arms. Guess what they brought to Kershaw County? People. You don't get economic development without people. Look at Charleston and Boeing. Look at BMW and Greenville. One follows the other. They're not separate. It takes people to run a factory. That's what built America. I'm not here to split atoms tonight. This makes sense. The ultimate goal makes sense, and it gives latitude, and it keeps us from being so dag gum overbearing. It's fair. It's fair, and it's... If we don't pass this tonight, you shoot yourself in the foot. Well, I'm not sure. For the foreseeable future, you shoot yourself in the foot. I didn't come up with this this morning. I've been thinking about this.

» I'm about to embark on my fifth year. I've been thinking about this since before I ran for county council. I care about Kershaw County. I care about the people of Kershaw County. I care about the people who work in Kershaw County and make their living in Kershaw County. If they're poor in concrete, if they're digging foundations, not everybody's white collar. I grew up broke as a hank working. Saturday was a workday, and it was because we had opportunity here in Kershaw County. We can't stifle everything that comes along just because we don't want it in our backyard. And if the government wants to stifle it, then y'all ain't seen Jimmy Jones fuss yet. Well, first off, I'm gonna tell you that now. All right, we're gonna go to Mr. Tomlinson if Mr. Basel is done. If he's done.

» Yeah, I wanna speak after breakfast. But he's got the floor, Madam Chair. I said if he's done. If you're done, we'll go to Mr. Basel. Thank you, Madam. I yield to the gentleman from Elgin. Thank you, Mr. Gentleman from Elgin. I appreciate you recognizing my location and the beautiful county that we live in. I do not disagree with exactly what you're saying. I think you're spot on. I think we have a backyard of hardworking individuals in Kershaw County who have built a living, specifically building a family and a future generation to where we stand foot today. Now, there's a few things that I do disagree with y'all. One, I don't think we're playing in the Field of Dreams movie. I don't think we're playing in a movie that you can say you build it and they will come. We've seen that.

» We've seen that with our economic development sites. We've seen that with a few other things. So I don't think what you're saying as far as if we have the people, we're gonna have the industry. That's not exactly how it works. You've got that exactly backwards. I completely disagree with you. No, my intention was backwards. Oh, oh, oh, I was just going with what you said. I'm sorry. My intention was if... Mr. Gentleman from Lugolf, Elgin. If you bring in big industry, you bring in people to run the industry. I love how you said that. Now, that's what we can get on. If you bring industry, then you bring people. We do have, luckily, some big industries who have been around Kershaw County. I do like what you're saying, and I think this is something that we can get upon.

» The only thing I cannot do is that I can't wrap my head around getting more, voting for something that will bring more people to Kershaw County. Is that what you're posing? Because I don't think it is. I just cut a 250-acre development by 60%. See, that's what I like to hear. I think we want people from Kershaw County to be exactly what we are, and something like that, I can't support. You and I are on the same page, sir. Thank you, brother. Mr. Chumakis, next. So, first off, you don't have to raise your voice. I'm coming close to agreeing with you, and then you gotta scream. You raised your voice last minute. You raised yours at the last minute. I don't raise my voice, but you raise yours. My wife tells me that I yell all the time, and I say that I'm being in fact.

» You just have a very booming voice, sir. Here's where I'm at, Russell. I think that, I think it's important we move forward on controlling this growth. I don't love your amendment. I would go farther. But I also, I also want to move forward. I want us to move forward as a group. And again, I don't love your amendment. I personally would go farther. I would go to one-acre lot sizes. I think I've been very clear about that. You have? But I think it's, there are certain issues that are too big to be too divided on. I'm willing to join you on this, because it still moves the ball forward. I would ask this. I would ask that we look at building permits in the next six months, see how many building permits were issued.

» I'm willing to pass this with this amendment if you're willing to join me in having that look, not asking for a commitment, but just have a look to see if we, if we still see this massive, if we're still getting choked by building permits, then we may have to take a different step, or at least an additional step. You have my absolute guarantee that I will always listen to anything you have to bring to the table, sir. Because that's, that's, I think, I mean, again, this is a too big an issue. We may disagree on the way we do this, but we're obviously in agreement that the explosive residential growth is choking our county. This is a step forward with your amendment.

» And rather than sort of take my ball and go home or try to fight you and have a four-three split one way or the other, I'd rather us do something as a group. So I will support your amendment with reservation that if, you know, I have some big epiphany between now and third reading, you know, we'll, we discussed that. But I think that, I think we can move this needle forward because, you know, without this, I think the other option available to us to address these issues is a moratorium. And you and I both talked about why that's not a good idea, big picture, I think, you know. But this may not be the last step to control this issue, but I'd rather take a big, majority step in the right direction than a narrow majority step that I think I personally might like. Madam Chair.

» I'd like to hear from you. Mr. Cato and then Mr. Jones. Did he ask you? He did. If Mr. Shoemake is done. I am finished. Okay. So Russell, I'll be honest with you. I wouldn't, I wasn't really in favor of this today because today was the first time I had seen this. And I apologize for that. And I've really not had a whole lot of time to grasp everything. But I will tell you this. I appreciate your passion. And I'll support it on first reading until we can try and work together to maybe iron out some more details or see where we need to go. I like what Derek said. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. So maybe I can grow to love it. But I will support it tonight on first reading. And I hope we all can work together to move forward with this growth because we have a major growth issue.

» We all know that. And I'll tell you, I have a lot of constituents and I'll speak about my district. We represent Kershaw County, but I'm gonna speak about my district. It's rule. And these people do not want to see this growth moving in in their hay fields and their farm fields and their pastures and North Central, Mount Pisgah, Bethune, Cassett, Westfield, the whole out 521. That's all I hear is, listen, you've got to stop growth. Well, the only thing we can do is what we can do legally. And all of which you just mentioned would require a zoning change. So I'll support it tonight on first reading and I look forward to moving forward and working on this. Thank you. Mr. Jones. Thank you all for having open ears. You want to go, you want me to say. You know, thank you for your passion, Mr.

» Cato. How many acres did we put all, that y'all voted to put all those solar panels on? How many acres was that? Ms. Templer. There was three different projects. Yeah, there was a lot of hundreds of acres, solar panels. I don't know which I wrote. Mr. Jones, I don't think solar panels relate to people. It doesn't matter. I'm talking, sir. Now, let me say this. And you respect your elders. Mr. Brazile, thank you so much for your hard work. Thank you so much for your hard work. I think your amendment is really a good one. You know, I'm gonna just bring the elephant out of the box. I'm gonna support the people of Kershaw County, but I'm gonna tell you something. We're gonna get sued. Mr. Attorney, Ken DeVos. I mean, excuse me. Close enough. Ken, John.

» How liable is the vote we're fixing to take? I'm not gonna render legal opinions about potential exposure for the county or any kind of threatened litigation on that. We already know. But anyway, I'm gonna support the people of Kershaw County, but I don't necessarily agree with the fast rate that we've done this. And we'll just see where it takes us. But Mr. Brazile, you've done very good tonight, and I appreciate that. All right, I'm done. Mr. Tucker. Thank you, Madam Chair. As usual, I guess I'll swim by myself. No one's brought up that the planning and zoning commission did not favor this amendment, which was requested by council. I think that's huge.

» We like to talk about it when we're in favor of what they give us, but when they're not in favor about what we ask them to do, then we don't speak about it. So I wanted to make sure that that was on public record. I supported going to the 15,000 six months ago. And truly, if I recall correctly, Mr. DeBose, we didn't have any pushback from any of the public or anything like that when we went to the 15,000. I'm not gonna support this tonight, and even in the second or the third reading, no matter what you do, because everybody's good for telling everybody what to do with their property, but don't wanna be told what to do with their property. You know, the best way to solve someone's issue to do with their property is to purchase it.

» You buy it, then you can control it and do what you wanna do with it. The other problem with this is that the timing. We're in the midst of doing the ZLDR, and this can be handled because I don't have a problem trying to curtail the growth by doing it what I call the proper way through our ZLDR and go through the proper channels. But the timing of this doesn't set well with me and my conscience and my heart, and so therefore, tonight, Madam Chair, I will not be supporting. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. I kinda wanna just bring us back. This discussion over the town homes is 6.71 units per acre versus 3.93 units per acre. And multifamily and apartments. And multifamily and apartments. I do not believe that the problem with growth is town homes or apartments.

» I feel that there's a lack of those in the community, and there is an older generation that I have discussed this with that would love to have beautiful apartments or beautiful town homes to move into that don't want the... So I do think that we're still attacking the problem. Mr. Shoemake, thank you for bringing up the building permits. I think that it would be responsible of all of us to watch the building permits. And if we see a huge density spike in town homes, then yes, maybe it is something we need to address. But right now, currently, Kershaw County is not having a problem with town homes or apartments. We actually have a lack of that type of housing. We have a problem with single-family home, large developments. So, Mr. Baswell, thank you. Thank you for your work.

» Correct, correct. There's still the cap. For major subdivisions. Right. And I will tell you something. So this kind of solves, we're creating diversity of housing and trying to slow down the growth. A moratorium is, in my opinion, a nuclear option. I would support it if we absolutely had to, but this is a way to not do that. And I would expect all of us up here to continue to follow this growth issue and the density issue and bring things as needed, just like you're doing. I think what we're doing is fair. It's realistic. It's not political. I don't do things up here on this dais to worry about a reelection. I think this should have been done years ago. I think Kershaw County is special. And I also think people have rights. Let's find some middle ground.

» And I feel like that's what we did here tonight. Great. Thank you, Mr. Baswell. Anything else? Mr. Tucker. Madam Chair, one thing I did forget, there's other tools in the toolbox. You know, we've got our impact fees that's been said over and over by some of our members who have come up here and spoken public comment. And I know we're looking at them, but you know, we've drug our foot for a little over a year now. So I'm asking you to, you know, reach into toolbox and grab all the tools that we have if you really want to try to help Crotel and make sure we have responsible growth. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. I don't think that Crotel's anything. Mr. Templer, on his point, is staff currently working on presenting council with an impact fee plan? Yes, we've met with the lines.

» Okay. That is well underway. Okay, thank you. All right, all those in favor of the amendment. And the amendment is, Mr. Baswell, please interrupt me and correct me if I'm wrong. In ordinance to amend the Kershaw County South Carolina Unified Code of Zoning and Land Development Regulations, Section 313, Table 3-4, to amend and increase the minimum lot size required for all residential single-family housing use types to no less than 21,780 square feet. And to leave the calculation for minimum lot size for single-family home attached use, also known as town homes, and multi-family use types, also known as apartments, at a minimum lot size of 15,000 square feet for the first dwelling and 5,000 square feet for the first lot size for each additional dwelling after the first.

» And for town homes and multi-family apartment complexes, they represent no more than 10% of any one subdivision. 10% of the developable acreage. 10% of? Of any one major subdivision. The develop? It's single-family's half acre. Right, and can I make a clarification? I think what you intended, you're talking about all multi-family uses, because you say town homes and multi-family apartments. You mean quadplexes, triplexes? I'll read it the way I have it written. In lieu of growing the lot sizes for single-family attached used houses, also known as town homes, and multi-family use, also known as apartment complexes, I present that they, combined, represent no more than 10% of the developable acreage of any one major subdivision. Right, but we're still keeping the 15,000 minimum lot size.

» Yeah, okay, gotcha. This is two separate, one amendment, two separate. Two separate issues, one amendment. Would you like to read it? Yes. I think I got the first part right. I think you got a copy, but it's in that message. She's gonna stretch all through it. It's hard to read. In lieu of growing lot sizes, this is the second part of the amendment. In lieu of growing lot sizes for single-family attached use and multi-family use, they will represent no more than 10% of the developable acreage of any one major subdivision. All those in favor of that amendment indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, and Mr. Jones, all those opposed? Mr. Tucker, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay, the amendment passes. Now we're up to the rest of the document.

» Again, this is first reading of the ordinance. I'm gonna strike, since the amendment passed, I'm gonna strike the method of calculation. Any discussion on the rest of the ordinance or document? Move on to ordinance as amended. Okay, all those in favor of the first reading of this ordinance to amend the Kershaw County, South Carolina Unified Code of Zoning and Land Regulations, section 3.1.3, table 3-4 as amended indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones, all those opposed? Mr. Tucker, Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? I vote yes. Okay, we'll see second reading in May. Great discussion, gentlemen, thank you.

» All right, golf, first reading of an ordinance of Kershaw County Council to amend chapter 12 of the Kershaw County Code of Ordinances related to emergency management of Kershaw County to provide for the powers and duties of the Emergency Management Department and its director to set forth the powers and duties of the Kershaw County Council and its chair in times of emergency to set forth procedures for declaring states of emergency, the imposition of curfews and the coordination of emergency preparedness activities. And you have a copy of the Kershaw County Emergency Operation Plan. Is there a motion at this time pertaining to this ordinance? Madam Chair, I make the motion that we approve first reading. Okay, motion to approve by Mr. Tucker. Is there a second? I'll second. Second by Mr.

» Cato and into discussion. Somebody give an overview of what this. Yes, so this, the Emergency Operations Plan and us declaring a state of emergency, there's certain provisions and things that have to be followed. This updates what we currently have. That is my broad understanding of what we're doing. Mr. DeBose, can you please go a little deeper? Yeah, I can provide a little further context. That's a fair, high-level summary, Madam Chair. This proposed amendment modernizes Chapter 12 of the County Code to square that with the county having an emergency management department in place with the director. Specifically, that chapter was fairly old in its inception. The curfew process within declarations of emergency has been updated.

» There was verbiage in the existing ordinance about council being able to close businesses that sold alcohol, gas, or firearms. During a state of emergency, the AG is upon that that's not a proper exercise of authority by local government. So those sections were stricken. Makes clear that there's an automatic expiration on the state of emergency, unless it is extended. And further makes it clear that Kershaw County council authority in declaring a state of emergency does not limit or otherwise affect the powers and duties of the Kershaw County Sheriff. Explicitly spells that out within the ordinance as well. Just so there's no question.

» To your earlier point, Madam Chair, this is kind of in concert with the periodic review and update of the emergency operations plan that counties put in place. That matters not before you, but is, I believe, one of the item 12 matters for council tonight. But yeah, basically updates it and makes sure that it squares with the fact that the county even has this emergency management department. When it was drafted, I do not believe that existed. So at the Association of Counties conference last year, one of the, I don't know if it was a class or just a seminar, it was on emergency preparedness. And they encouraged everyone to review what they currently had and just see if it needs updated any certain sections. So that's what this does.

» I would like to point out, it also takes the chair's inability to act. Anywhere it says chair, it says his action. It takes the word his out and it changes it to chair. And members of council, for what's worth, Will Glover was instrumental in bringing this to Mr. Templer and our office. He's been extremely involved and helpful in it, making sure that it squares with state emergency management, specifically in the EOP. But he's also been invaluable in making sure that the ordinance accomplishes what the emergency management department and director needs in there without limiting council's independent authority. Any other questions? Thank you, Mr. Glover, for your hard work on this. All right, and also, Mr. DeBose, one last question.

» This ordinance will put the later operations plan into motion. The operations plan. How do they work together? The operations plan can be voted upon in isolation. The statutory authority already exists for that. This is just making sure, again, that the Kershaw County code of ordinances is up to date. Again, it doesn't even contemplate the fact that there's an emergency management department or that an EOP process really exists to clear an emergency. Again, the EOP can be updated independent of this, but to your point, Madam Chair, Association and counties, it's something that has been encouraged to be looked at. Again, Mr. Glover, you've been instrumental in helping with it. Thank you, Mr. DeBose. Any other questions? Comments? Okay.

» All those in favor of this first reading of the ordinance of Kershaw County Council to amend chapter 12 of the Kershaw County code of ordinance related to emergency management, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Basile, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, and Mr. Jones. Mr. Tomlinson, how do you vote? He's over going. He's gone? Okay. He's going to drop off the heel. All right, we'll go to second reading with that. And Mr. DeBose, Mr. Templer, and Mr. Glover, if there's any updates that you come across, just let us know for second reading if we need to do anything different in it. All right, item number 12, new business. First item of new business is a bid on three new 20 cubic yard sledge dewatering boxes. And we have the bids for our review. And Mr.

» Templer, do you want to give us an overview or your suggestions? Yes, ma'am. What you have in front of you is the only bid we had. This current bid, we have put this out twice on South Carolina business opportunities and we've received several disqualifying bids because it didn't meet what we needed. They came back with a completely different product. It was kind of apples and oranges. So this bid here completely satisfied the requirement. A dewatering box is something that is a piece of equipment out at our wastewater treatment facility. And this allows us to dewater the sludge to allow us to carry it off on our own. This equipment will allow us to reduce our dependency on contractors where they come in with a bell press and do this process.

» So kind of essentially lets this material dry on its own through a period of time and we can keep up with it. So I do recommend the bid for $178,792.20 for SNS welding. And Mr. Templer, what is the funding source? We have this in our current budget in the utilities department. Okay, all right. Is there a motion to accept this bid? I'd like to. Any other questions for Mr. Templer on the bid? I will after a second. Okay. I would like to make a motion that we accept the bid that's presented before us for SNS welding and fabrication. Okay, Mr. Tucker makes a motion to accept this bid. Is there a second? I'll second. Okay, second by Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker. Thank you, madam. Thank you, madam chair. Mr. Templer, so I understand that this is gonna save us some contracted services.

» And if you don't know, that's fine. So when will we recoup this cost of 178 through that? Is that's a long process? That's, you know, five, six years or year? I don't know on that. I know when we bring in the dewatering process we have now, it's not cheap. Okay. And this is much cheaper than a bill press that would be probably four or five times this cost. Thank you, sir. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. Any other questions? Sounds like an enthralling endeavor. Yes, that's exciting stuff. Thank you, yes. All right, all those in favor of accepting, I'm looking for the SNS. SNS welding and fabrication. SNS welding and fabrication bid for the sludge dewatering box indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Brazel, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Shoemake, myself, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones.

» Right, next item is the emergency operations plan. Is there a motion to update our emergency operations plan? I would make that motion. Okay, Mr. Shoemake, with the motion, is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Tucker. Into discussion. Are there any other questions or discussion items? This still tells with the ordinance, right? Correct, it can be updated independently. The ordinance, and Mr. DeBose chime in at any time, the ordinance is our procedures for declaring an emergency and how we're gonna act in emergency. This operations plan goes into detail of what we're gonna do in specific situations outside of that ordinance. But same process was used. Yes, they just got updated at the same time in this instance. Okay. And the updates are in it by stricken matters and added matters, so.

» All right, did we get, oh, is there a motion to approve the emergency operations plan? We did it, okay. Sammy Shoemake, and I didn't write it down, I'm sorry. Yes, ma'am, that's okay. Shoemake, Tucker. All right, all those in favor of updating the Kershaw County Emergency Operations Plan indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel. Thank you, Mr. Glover, for your hard work on this. And Ms. Parler, can you indicate that Mr. Jones was not here for the vote? All right, up to item number 13, appointments. The first one is the Clean Community Commission to at-large vacancies. Since we did not pass third reading, I'm gonna make a motion that we just defer this to mirror the third reading of the ordinance. Second.

» Okay, any discussion on that? Okay, all those in favor of deferring the Clean Community Commission applicants to mirror the third reading of the updated Clean Community Commission, the standards, the criteria. I'm sorry, you guys. We got you. We get it. We're good. We're ready to vote. Okay, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, with Mr. Jones temporarily absent. Thank you. I hope we changed the name. Next is the Assessment Appeals Board. We have one vacancy and we have one applicant. So I'll open it up to the floor if there is a motion or a nomination at this time. Do we know, do you recall, that's a, how many people does that board have on it? Do you remember? No, not. Ms. Piler, do you know how many people are on it? That's good.

» That's the way I look at it. I was worried about them. Yeah, it's been a while since we've had a vacancy. So there's five positions on the Assessment Appeals Board. Currently, Timothy Thomas, Terry Bullard, Lynn Blizzard, and Rosalyn Franklin are serving on it with districts represented one, four, and five. No two. No two, three. No, sir. Six. Six. I was gonna count that six in my head. Yeah, no two, three, six. You know, I would, I think I'd make a motion to maybe defer this for another meeting and just make sure that there's, because this would add another, there is one applicant, but as I think that would be a district five person, and I'd like to maybe defer that. 1262 Wood Duck Road. Camden, right? So it really could be, it could be five, six or two.

» Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it's five. Okay. I don't think I'd go to Wood Duck. I know Wood Duck. Okay, motion to defer this vacancy. Look, if nobody else is interested, then certainly I think, you know, we don't need to push people off, but you know, I didn't realize there was a vacancy, so I think some of the not represented districts may want to look. Okay. Well, that's gonna cause another problem because we got to get it in the packet. Yeah. So you may have to put it off for two meetings. That's fine. All right, is that fair? Motion to defer. Yeah, hold on a second. For what it's worth, I was on that committee for about four years and I never, there was never a meeting.

» And you know what I told them? I said, that's a good thing because that means that department will be called assessors. They solve most of their problems. They're working. All right, well, do we want to just nominate the lady that supplied them so it can be full? I would motion to nominate Ms. Laura Bowen for it because she's interested. And again, it's, yeah, it's a very, it's not a super active war because it's not needed. Maybe it will be. So I wouldn't want to pass her up simply by where she lives. I second. Okay. All right, and any discussion on that? Make a motion for her already. She made a motion and I second. Okay, cool. Oh, I'll make it former. I said it, I would, but I motion that we nominate Laura Bowen to the vacancy on the assessment appeals board. Second. Okay.

» And thank you to Ms. Bowen for your willingness to serve. Any other discussion? Her resume and her application. Well, and I'm kind of glad we're moving forward, Madam Chair, because we are coming up on reassessment soon. So she can get herself acclimated and that's when they really get busy is every five years, so. Let me look at the other terms while we're on it just to see if there's something else coming up. Know that next expiration will be 2027, so. All right, all those in favor of Ms. Laura Bowen serving in the vacant position on the assessment appeals board, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, with Mr. Jones temporarily absent. All right, item 14, council member briefings. Mr. Tucker, we'll start with you. Mr.

» Brazel started last time. All right, thank you so very much. I have no report. Oh, the finance committee meeting is Wednesday at 3.30, so Mr. Shoemake is correct and I want to make sure that the public knew and we got it on record, so tomorrow at 3.30. Thank you. Tomorrow at 3.30. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. All right, Mr. Shoemake. Nothing much, long meeting. I do want to thank all my colleagues up here. Again, you know, growth is something we've been talking about a lot. I ran on it. I was talking about it on neighborhoods two years ago, or talking about it with neighbors two years ago. I talked about it extensively when I knocked on doors over a year ago and obviously Mr.

» Brazel's been working on for years and so, you know, a lot of very, very deliberative thought went into this over a long period of time. So I just want to thank my colleagues and, you know, I think Mr. Brazel, we, you know, didn't all the way agree but I appreciate your passion for it even if you did yell at me and hurt my feelings. You're pretty tough. Nobody hurts his feelings but his wife. That's all I have. All right, Mr. Cato. I really don't have anything. I just want to, I want to thank, Russell, I want to thank you for your hard work even though we don't always agree. I mean, it's still, it's hard work and I appreciate you doing what you do and for the council communicating the way we do and last thing I just want to wish my oldest daughter a happy birthday. Happy birthday.

» Sorry, I won't tell how old she is but Jessica, happy birthday and I love you. Well, give her a better weave than that. Happy birthday, Jessica. She's probably not watching. But that's all I have. She's smart. Thank you, Mr. Cato. I will be brief. The citizens that come and speak at public hearings or public comments, thank you so much. I hope that you're seeing that this council does get together in between meetings, not whole council or not a quorum or anything but we do work on the issues that are brought to us through public comments. Some people choose to contact us in between and not use the public comment forum. There's a multitude of ways to get in touch with us and work on things.

» But I want to thank you because you really, there's a lot of great ideas that come from the community and to this body. Thank you for working together on these things. I've definitely have been able to tell a difference in all of us, including myself, on coming together on some of these really important issues. Mr. Eli's birthday is Monday, so happy fifth birthday to Mr. Eli. And today is Mr. Tripp Gwynn's birthday, so happy birthday to him. Mr. Templar. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Brazel. I'm used to getting left out, it's okay. You know, this, the second time that's happened, I'm sorry. I think the first one time was on purpose, this time it wasn't. You know what, I'm glad we can joke around. And I'm glad that you can forgive me for getting a little heated. And I am the lady from East Camden.

» Yes, the lady from East Camden. I do recognize the lady from East Camden. Something that I'm truly passionate about is our civil rights, our civil liberties, our personal property rights. I'm passionate about Kershaw County, I'm passionate about our quality of life, and I'm passionate about living in America in a free country. And sometimes striking a balance on these nitty gritty issues get tough. I almost feel like national politics would be a much easier task. You've got big issues and you strike a yes or a no depending on which side of the aisle you're on. But we're in here working together as citizens. I don't see us looking at one another across party lines. And I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that I can serve our community in a way that's impactful.

» I'm thankful that I've been able to come here for three and a half years and push and push and push and push. And I'm gonna be so happy to see that boat ramp built. And I'm so thankful for everyone's support. And I never mean to have harsh words with my colleagues, just get a little wound up sometimes. So thank you all. And I appreciate everybody that puts up with me. That's all. Have a good night. Thank you, Mr. Braslin. Mr. Templer. Madam Chair, members of council, I just have three items for you tonight, just updates. The boat ramp survey should be completed within this next week or so. And I look to have, by next council meeting, a product that Alliance will be putting out for bid through procurement. So I'm kind of excited to see that moving along nicely now.

» Sewer system, DHEC permitting has been submitted and bids are expected to go out in July. So DHEC permitting is gonna kind of be the theme for the next couple weeks or next couple meetings, rather, that's a slow process. But we're still on track with that. And that project staying on target is important because using ARPA money, we have a limited amount of time to spend that. So that's gonna be a tough one. That's right. But I'm optimistic that we'll meet those deadlines. Woodward Park, the recommission met today. This was a rescheduled meeting to pare down some of the amenities that are in there to meet some cost inflations that we've had. I always said that waiting is not saving. Costs are going up probably per quarter on that project, but nothing that's running out of control.

» I still think we'll be able to come out with a very nice park with quality amenities out there. So that is my report. Thank you. Mr. DeBose. Up to item number 18, adjournment. Is there a motion to adjourn? Mr. Tucker. This is too important to give up. Okay. Please, if you will bear with me. So what I did fail to mention is that this Saturday out at Woodward Field, Oceana Go, Hale Goldmine is having a hiring event. So if someone needs a job, a good job, come out and apply because they're hiring and they are a good company to work for, benefits and pay. So I encourage you to come out, eat some hot dogs. I'm cooking, promise not to poison you. Mr. Tucker, can you say the time again? I've didn't, 10 to two, from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. Thank you. Thank you. That is important. Yeah, I'm sorry.

» That's okay. Okay. Motion to adjourn. Is there one? Motion to adjourn, Madam Chair. Okay, Mr. Tucker makes the motion. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Cato. Any discussion? Okay, all those in favor of adjourning tonight's meeting indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker and Mr. Brazel. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you, Madam Chair.