Full meeting transcript - February 13, 2024

» Good evening, Kershaw County citizens here with us in person and online. This is the first meeting of February, Tuesday, February 13th. Kershaw County regular scheduled meeting, and I call it to order. We're going to begin tonight with an invocation by Elder Shelly Hardy, pastor of St. Mark Church of God in Christ. Elder Hardy, thank you for being here. Good afternoon. We're going to ask you if you would bow your heads with us. Gracious God, our Father, we come to this meeting, and we come first saying thank you. Thank you for keeping us all day. We thank and praise you, O God. We magnify you. We exalt you. And, Father, we pray for this council. We pray for our chair. We pray, God, for all of the county members that are here and all of the county council.

» We just pray, O God, that you will guide us with wisdom and understanding and that you will allow your meeting to be engaging and understanding and peaceful and that we may be productive in this county. Lord, I just thank and praise you. I allow your spirit to dwell over this meeting and continue to bless us as we go through it. Give us clarity, O God, in all those that speak. We ask this prayer in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. What we're just saying is one nation, liberty, and justice for all. Thank you. And thank you, Elder Hardy, for being here tonight and being a member of the concerned clergy of Kershaw County. All right. Adoption of tonight's agenda. Madam Chair, I make a motion that we adopt the agenda as presented. Okay.

» Motion to adopt as presented. It's our second. Second by Mr. Brazel. And into discussion, I make an amendment to strike 11, bravo, the FY24-25 budget priorities. These budget priorities were not in the agenda packet, therefore not presented to the public. And I just think we need to give the public an opportunity to look at them before we take a vote on them. I'll second it. Okay. Second by Mr. Brazel. Any discussion on that removal? And I would propose that we move it to the February 27th, the very next meeting. It's okay about me. Okay. All those in favor of striking 11, bravo, and moving it to February 27th, indicate by raising your hand. And it's unanimous. Okay. So strike 11B. All right. This doesn't even need an amendment. I'm going to reorder something on the agenda.

» I'm going to move 11 alpha and move it to right before public comments, number six. Madam Chair, I'd like to make an amendment as well. I would like to, I would make an amendment that we move executive session number 16 to just after public presentation. Motion to move executive session after public presentation? Yes. So just after public presentation. Okay. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Tucker? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Discussion? Mr. Shoemake, can you give us a rundown of why? Some of the issues that are coming up, I think, may affect the discussion coming, that comes after it. So I think it would be more helpful to move it up. Okay. Alpha or bravo? Because alpha is? 16. Both, both, uh, 16s. So we can get it done at once and not have to do two. Okay.

» Any other questions, concerns? Okay. All those in favor of moving item number 16, executive session, to right after public presentations, making it the new item number eight. Indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Tucker, Mr. Basile, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tomlinson, and Mr. Cato. And opposed, Ms. Gwynn. Okay. On the first page, item number six will be Senator Gustafson's presentation. Seven will be public comments. Eight will be public presentations. Nine will be executive session. Regarding the executive session, I'd like to ask that the attorney join us. Okay. Absolutely. Mr. DuBose, we need you, well, for alpha. Okay. When we get there, well, I do not need him for alpha. Do you want him for both, Mr. Basile? I would if it suits. And Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Tomlinson.

» Senator Gustafson texted earlier, and I sent it to the group saying that she was leaving. I don't see her here currently in the audience, but she may be a little bit behind, so we may want to go ahead and do public presentation to give her a little bit of time considering bridge work and everything else and the route back from Columbia. Okay. I'm still going to move her on the agenda, and then if she's not here, when she gets here, yeah, we'll just, we'll interrupt, not interrupt, but we'll stop whatever item we're on and give her time. Okay. Any other amendments? Concerns? Okay. All those in favor of this agenda as amended indicate by raising your hand. All right. Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brasile. So, okay, this is our new agenda as indicated.

» Any questions before we get going with it? Okay. All right. Next item, proclamation for Black History Month. A proclamation honoring National Black History Month. Whereas, Kershaw County celebrates February as National Black History Month to recognize the vast contributions of African Americans to our nation's history and identity. And, whereas, Black History Month grew out of the establishment in 1926 during the second week of February of Negro History Week by Carter G. Woodson and the Association for the Study of African American Life and History. This week was chosen because it coincides with the birthday of Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass.

» And, whereas, Black History Month in the United States was first proposed by Black educators and the Black United students at Kent State University in February 1969. Six years later, it was being celebrated all across the country. President Gerald Ford recognized Black History Month in 1976 during the celebration of the of the U.S. Bicentennial. He urged Americans to seize the opportunity to honor the two often neglected accomplishments of Black Americans in every area of endeavor throughout our history. And, whereas, the celebration of Black History Month is a positive way to recognize the culture and history of African Americans as vital to the core beliefs and values of this community.

» And, whereas, the contributions of African Americans have been vital to the growth and development of Kershaw County. And, whereas, Black History Month is a time to honor the trailblazers who have made history like District 2 County Councilman Sammy Tucker Jr. and City of Camden Mayor Alfred May Drakeford. And, whereas, Kershaw County Council strives to close the equity and outcome gaps for African American citizens through policies and practices that reflect the experiences of African American citizens, ensure greater access and opportunity and honor history, heritage, and contributions. And, whereas, many individuals in Kershaw County have paved the way for Black achievement by their contributions to help move forward together embracing diversity and creating change.

» We honor these trailblazers who have left behind a legacy to promote social justice and a growing awareness for stronger leadership and stronger communities. It is important to preserve our history, traditions, and culture by empowering our future generations to make positive differences to ensure equal opportunities, economic triumphs, and political victories that work to weave justice, freedom, and peace among all groups of people in Kershaw County. Now, therefore, be it resolved that the County Council of Kershaw recognizes that disparities exist in the various communities to diminish intentional positive conversation.

» However, County Council supports organizations and associations such as Concerned Citizens of Kershaw County, the Camden-Kershaw County Branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, NAACP, and the Unity in the Community in their efforts to assist in creating intentional spaces in the community which provide opportunities for citizens regardless of class, color, race, or gender orientations, to experience challenges, affirmations, change, courage, gratitude, and to pursue their passion to unlearn traditional misunderstandings. Adopted this day, February 13, 2024. Is there a motion to accept this proclamation? Madam Chair, I'd like to make a motion to accept the proclamation. Okay, Mr. Tucker with the motion. Is there a second? I'll second. Second by Mr.

» Tomlinson. And into discussion. Madam Chair, I just want to say thank you to all who has been contributing, our teachers, our leaders in the county, our communities that do recognize and help to remember black history throughout America and Kershaw County. So I just want to say thank you to all. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Jones. You look very nice. Thank you very much. I'm going to support this in honor and name of my dear friend, George and Evelyn Gibson. I think many folks have known that Evelyn's been fighting cancer. Apologize for my voice. But anyway, I'm supporting this in honor of them. And I'm going to tell you something. I don't necessarily agree with everything on this resolution. I think things have gotten better. I think we all love each other a lot better.

» I don't think there's as much division as there used to be years and years ago, we keep playing up on that. But I'm going to tell you some of the folks. I've seen communities come together, black, white, yellow, brown. And I'm proud of that. Very proud of that. Anyway, so thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Any other comments? Okay. All those in favor of accepting a proclamation honoring National Black History Month as the month of February in Kershaw County indicate by raising your hand. And the vote is unanimous. And thank you, Ms. Hannah, for getting this ready for us. Excuse me, Mr. Maddox. You're going to have to record from your seat. It is. It is. Anybody can record this session or watch it online, but you need to do so from your seat.

» We're not going to allow equipment to be set up unless they're with the press. Mr. Maddox, please take the camera down and take your seat. All right, the next item is the briefing from Senator Gustafson, and I don't see her here yet. We're going to move on to public comments. Mr. DuBose, can you hand me the public comment sheet? Thank you. All right, there are nine speakers this evening. All right, each speaker will have five minutes. You don't have to take five minutes, but that will be your limit. I don't like cutting people off, but I will have to if you run out of time. Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Jones.

» That's a point of order, and I'm no big fan of a lot of folks in here, a couple of folks in here, but I'll tell you this, I understand if somebody doesn't set the camera up inside our barrier here, I understand that, but I don't really have a problem with them setting it up outside the barrier. Okay. I agree, Councilman Jones. I'm not sure where in our rules it prohibits setting up a camera. So I didn't, first of all, Mr. Jones, your point, I didn't say it was in the rules. I said I'm not going to allow it. It's too close to the dais. That's where the deputy stands, and he can record from his seat. I just wanted to make my point. Okay. Thank you. All right. The first speaker tonight is Andrew Whitaker. Good evening, everybody. Madam Chairman. Good evening, Mr. Whitaker. Thank you.

» Madam Chairman, Kershaw County Councilman, thank you, Kershaw County Council, for putting a second reading of the Kershaw County Roadside Litter Control Ordinance on tonight's agenda. All Kershaw County citizens who walk, drive, and ride our county roads see firsthand for themselves, sadly, every single day, our county's terrible roadside litter crisis. We also see, unfortunately, how very ineffective, at present, the current level of deterrence laws, fines, and what the low ticket issuance revenue levels actually are. And, therefore, I just wanted to note that I support the proposed increase in roadside litter deterrence ordinance in order to lessen the roadside litter tonnage in our beautiful Kershaw County. This is a great first step.

» We citizens, though, do see the positive Kershaw County Council personnel recruitment initiative underway for a Kershaw County roadside officer and team. And we thank you for this big second step. A few questions, and then I'll be done. What is the Kershaw County targeted deadline for these hires? You don't have to answer them now. They're just for your consideration.

» What will be the annual Digi Videocam budget that will allow this team to enforce the law in necessary quantities to make the enforcement of roadside litter effective? How do we empower the roadside litter team to catch in the act enough litter bugs to both reduce roadside littering and to raise enough dollars in fines and work pickup hours to fund regular county-wide roadside litter removal? It's my view that the only truly effective and powered enforcement will have the regular roadside litter removal pay for itself. After all, a clean county is an attractive county. A county that is an attraction attracts revenue and dollars in the bank for all the businesses that exist in this county and, of course, for our citizens' full enjoyment. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Whitaker.

» Also, thank you for cleaning up Springdale Drive. I see you out there all the time. All right. The next speaker is Jim Steele. Hi, Jim. How are you? I'm here today to speak in opposition to the litter ordinance. If this was strictly a roadside litter ordinance, I would probably be for it. But it's much more than that once you start reading it. I'll tell you a little story. About seven years ago, I met my current wife. Her mother lived in one of the most, which was claimed to be one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Florida. Well, I went down there to visit her. I started looking around. And everything looked the same. There was no diversity. No nothing. All the roofs were of approved color.

» You couldn't even have your garage door open without, unless you were working in your garage and this stuff. It was awful. A lot of us don't want to live that way. So we move out in a country where we own our own property, where we can live like we want to. We don't need people snooping around our property looking for a reason to fine us. Okay? There are people out there that don't have the resources physically or the money to pay a fine. Why are we making it harder on them? Okay? If these properties are so blighted, why don't the neighbors pitch in? Go talk to them. Clean it up. We don't need people coming around, snooping around, without any good reason, just to find that we may be committing a crime.

» Okay? It says in the ordinance that any law enforcement officer or litter control officer or any of that can decide whether your property is blighted or not. Okay? Whether you have trash. That's very subjective. Okay? What kind of training do these people get to determine what is or isn't trash? Okay? A lot of people are what we call scroungers, scrappers, whatever you want to call them. They have a lot of stuff piled up on their property. Well, you know why a lot of it's piled up? It's because they're waiting until they get enough of it that it makes it profitable for them to haul it off. Okay? And for somebody to drive by and go, oh, my goodness, look at this. Uh, it's just not right.

» So, I worked hard to pay for my property, and I like to try to keep it looking fairly decent, but it's not for somebody else to tell me that that's wrong. So, that's all I got to say. Thank you, Mr. Steele. The next speaker is Tom Webb III. Hi, Tom. How are you? Well, it's, uh, who kills Scalia month? He died in February 2016. It's been eight years, and y'all have forgotten about him, but I haven't. Um, he went, uh, hunting down in West Texas, and, uh, he didn't come for breakfast. So, the, uh, ranch owner went in to check on him, found him dead in bed with a pillow on his face, and he didn't get an autopsy. He was, uh, rather well-hated because he was so pro-Constitution. I think he was assassinated. It's also Black History Month, so I'm going to tell you a little bit of black history.

» Um, I'm going to have to read some of this. Um, I had a black friend 30 years ago. She was old then, but what a worker. She lived in a rural area and pursued life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness her way. Kind of like the old song, I did it my way, she did it her way. She collected cardboard, and when she had a load, she took it to Sunoco. I think that's near Hartsville, and sold it. So, um, this ordinance is, uh, against cardboard. And then she also collected and sold cans, and this ordinance, this litter ordinance, is against cans. So she would have been at odds with the unnecessary litter ordinance that you're working on today. By some standards, you might consider her poor, but she was too busy to notice.

» She had a house trailer right next to her trailer, and she was working on it, something of a carpenter and other things as well. Her trailer didn't have running water or electricity. She had a hand pump out in the front yard. She did have electricity, though, 12-volt light bulbs in her trailer, and two batteries, two car batteries. She kept one in her truck and one to power the lights in the trailer, and switched them, and switched them, and switched them to keep them charged up. Resourceful, and this is the way people are in the outback, in the boondocks. They can be very resourceful. Well, people gave her all kinds of stuff, and she scrapped it and used it and sold it, and eventually someone gave her a little Honda generator that didn't run.

» She put it in my care, and I found it had a bent valve. I had to take it all to pieces. I never could see why it was bent. Something got dropped into the engine, I guess. But I took the valve out, straightened the valve stem, put it back together, and the generator ran. She used it to run her old ringer washing machine sitting out in her front yard, right next to the hand pump. It's been a long time since I saw my friend Laura. She was a great example of what American spirit can do, can do spirit. Your ordinance would have deprived me of that experience of Laura. Your ordinance, where a man with a gun can come on private property to look around, is just a stepping stone to something more. It's a foot in the door. In 2016 or 17, there was a similar ordinance, only worse.

» And about 125 to 150 people showed up right here, crowded this room, filled the lobby, out into the parking lot. I didn't get a chance to speak. I stood out in the parking lot, beating on a drum the whole time. It was a circus. It was great. And the ordinance went down. Sammy Tucker remembers it. He's smiling. So I think this is really something that we expected to come along, to redo that ordinance, this time piece by piece, bit by bit. This is it. There are several Republicans on county council. And I hope you remember the Republican creed ends with, I am a free American. And not only that, rural American and very different from a city American. We don't need this ordinance. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Webb. All right. The next speaker is Gregory Fisher. Hi, Gregory. How are you? Good.

» Good evening, counselors. I'd like to address the litter control ordinance. The stated reasons for this ordinance is to prohibit the unlawful disposal of litter and Kershaw. Mr. Fisher, I'm so sorry. Can you move the microphone? Better? Yes. Yes. Okay. After reading it, however, I must conclude that on balance, it does no such thing. In Section 2, it states that activities such as transporting loose materials, illegal dumping, and unlawful disposal or replacement of debris shall not be allowed. However, the rest of the ordinance doesn't make any effort to actually address this issue. Instead, it simply creates a series of escalating fines to punish the victims of litter bugs.

» Section 5B makes clear that when the litterer is not found, which the ordinance makes no tools or practical proposals for how that could be, the victim of the crime is then fully responsible for the crime and must be severely punished. This is the exact opposite of justice or fairness. Section 7B, however, makes this ordinance even more destructive to the well-being of the residents of Kershaw County. It authorizes any law enforcement member to violate the privacy of the owners and orders them to trespass on any property they choose to hunt for litter. Anytime, day or night, there are literally no restrictions on how or when they can invade the quiet enjoyment of Kershaw residents in their search for a piece of trash. The officers don't even need probable cause.

» The order is to search and find. Can you imagine the panic of walking around your property and seeing armed officers searching your yard or your woods? Or if you've got a dog out and they see a stranger running around in your yard? Never mind at night out with flashlights looking for trash. The worst part is they will always be able to find something. There is almost no part of the world that doesn't have a broken bottle or a stray piece of trash. Every resident of the county is automatically guilty. A famous tyrant once said, show me the person and I'll show you the crime. This is exactly the situation this ordinance creates. The fines themselves don't have limits. They are minimum fines with no maximum or time frame.

» Now, I'm sure you'll respond that you never intended for them to be used this way, the way that I've described, or that it would never be allowed. History, however, shows that is never true. They are written to allow unimpeded trampling of the personal space of every property owner in Kershaw. There are no restrictions at all in how any officer can interpret this set of rules, and no off-limit areas. If you want to limit litter on the highways and make Kershaw a more beautiful place to live, there are many options that don't include trampling the rights of the residents to do it. This ordinance will not lower the litter in the county. What it will do is make every property owner a criminal living in fear of a scrap of paper landing in their yard.

» I have purchased properties in the past that have been ill-used by their previous inhabitants. My wife and I would joke about treasure hunts because every time we took a walk, we'd discover a new piece of glass or a bit of junk that showed up, either from a passerby throwing something out or from the rain washing away the dirt to reveal a new layer. I ask you to withdraw this ordinance. It is excessively broad and a gut punch to the residents of Kershaw County. We love living here, and all of us want it to continue to be a beautiful place to live and enjoy. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Fisher. All right, the next speaker is Elizabeth Higgins. Hi, Elizabeth. How are you? Okay. I was born in Camden.

» I moved to New York City in 1975, but I came back often to see my parents, who were long-time residents. My father moved here in 1934 to open Belks. Which, for many years, was located in what is now the 1011 Galleria. By the early 1960s, it was clear that that location, they had outgrown that location. So, my father had an innovative idea of moving out of that block of downtown and building a new store further up Broad Street. The building that we're in right now was the new Belks. And my father hired a talented, relatively young local architect to design it, Henry Boykin. So, here we are. And in addition to that, there have been other wonderful things going on downtown. Buildings being restored, new businesses going in.

» And so, for that, we can thank Vincent Shaheen and Rob and Karen Brown. Now, to me, these are examples of responsible growth, which is the goal of our organization, Responsible Growth for Kershaw County. We want to encourage growth while preserving the beauty and history of our community, including reviving and strengthening the equestrian industry, which once flourished here. Our intent is also to protect the community's infrastructure and quality of life and stop the rampant development that will destroy it. To that end, we have been fortunate to have the help of Will Cook, a native South Carolinian who is a nationally recognized lawyer and scholar, whose practice focuses on balancing historic preservation with economic development.

» Will Cook knows Camden, and he feels that we need a moratorium on development for at least three years until a new comprehensive plan can be developed and approved by the citizens of Camden and Kershaw County. The plan must have transparency, very important, and would include appropriate studies regarding schools, traffic, water quality, trash and sewage capacity, as well as population density and historic significance of properties, which Arch Kinsley, you're here, will explain when he speaks about the equine overlay for the Camden Training Center. As for the Camden Training Center, the moratorium would also provide the opportunity to develop alternative uses for that property, some of which are beginning to be explored and potentially offer wonderful and even lucrative opportunities.

» And they will happen more readily if the property is not annexed into the city. Prosperity and growth are not mutually inclusive. Growth does not ensure prosperity nor increase the quality of life. And thank you. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Mr. Higgins. Ms. Higgins. The next speaker is Matthew Hutchinson. Hi, Matthew. How are you? I'm a resident of Cassett. There's a lot of litter along the roadways where I live off Holland Road. I think my wife went out and picked up eight bags of trash one time after we first moved there. Thirteen bags of trash. I'm sorry. Thirteen bags. We didn't call the cops. We didn't come to county council to complain about it. We just picked up the trash.

» We know we're not going to change the culture of the people who are throwing trash out on the roadways. They're going to do it whether it's illegal or not, just like people speed when it's illegal. One more thing. I feel like almost every time I come down here and speak, I need to remind five of you at least, swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, which includes the First Amendment. Everybody else pretty much said everything I was going to say tonight, so I'm not going to repeat much.

» On page 24, section 5, subsection B, if the person responsible for littering or receptacles is unknown, or if there is no change, no charge or conviction of a person for the violation in question, then the owner of the property shall be responsible for the removal of litter from such property or receptacles in accordance with section 7. What is section 7? That means you're going to hold a private landowner, financially responsible, legally responsible, to pick up somebody else's trash off their property. I found a toilet on my property. Do you really think an ordinance is going to stop somebody from throwing the toilet out if they really want to? Yeah. No. All you're going to do is force these sheriff's deputies to track people down, and they're already overworked.

» You're going to fine these people. They don't have the money to pay it. They're going to throw them in jail. You got much room left in the jail, Sheriff? Probably not, right? So really, this is a boneheaded ordinance. Section 8 says it perfectly, talking about the constitutionality of this. That's definitely a CYA line, and I can say it out if you want me to, but that was put in there because you know this is going to be unconstitutional. It's unenforceable. I don't know why this is even a thing. This is the shipping container ban 2.0. You're trying to control what we do on our own personal property, plain and simple. But I'm going to use the rest of my time since Ms. Gustafson's here. Please vote yes on the medical cannabis bill. Please vote yes on the constitutional carry.

» Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hutchinson. The next speaker is Krishonda Torres. Hi, Krishonda. How are you? Good evening. I'm Krishonda Torres, and I'll be brief and be concise, and then I'll be gone like the military taught me to. So this ordinance to me is a little bit more insidious than what it says and the other gentleman kind of said what I was going to say, so I'll just be quick. It seems to me that it's opening the door to eminent domain. The second point is that it seems to want to turn Kershaw County into an HOA. As a citizen, I have the right to be secure in my home from unreasonable search and a reasonable seizure. That's what this document says. That's what my service of 20 years and 9 months indicates to this country.

» So as someone who made the purposeful decision to retire here in Kershaw County in Camden, South Carolina, versus anywhere else in the United States and the world, I'm not interested in living in a police state. Again, my name is Krishonda Torres. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Ms. Torres. The next speaker is Jeff Maddox. Hi, Jeff. How are you? I'm back again. Yeah, it's been a while. I think it was last week, last meeting of November. And since then, there's been attacks on free speech all over the place. It's been the Looney Tunes. Now, I did watch the videos and that kind of thing. And the efficiency and germaneness and then the opposite, as if by spite, has been amazing to watch. And then again, the night with the cameras and that kind of thing.

» And who is and who is not a journalist. That's interesting, too. I want to thank everybody for coming out. This is great to see a crowd like this. Agree or disagree or not. It's good that we're out here and speaking our mind. But these literal ordinances, these administrative laws, are constitutional because we volunteer for them and we accept benefits from the corporate state as citizens. And so here comes this administrative law, which has gone crazy, which now you have to take them to court to beat it. It's just like they say down there, you know. So if any of this is found to be unconstitutional, everything else is good. Just that's null and void.

» Well, how much do you think it costs to take it through the court system, which the state owns and controls and signs paychecks for that we pay for? Well, how much do you think that it costs to take that to court, to finally find it unconstitutional? Or if they say it's constitutional, it's not really a human law. It's a personhood law. Personhood. You know a corporation can be a person. Isn't that an amazing thing? How does a corporation, a fictional being, have rights? It's kind of like government. It's a fictional being, and it has more rights than I do or they do. That's why they're here begging for whatever, because you guys have that monopoly on force. And if the only tool you have in the toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And that's what you have.

» It doesn't matter what kind of central planning or whatever. By majority rules, and we think it's for the general welfare, we shall do it. The whippings will continue until morale improves. This litter thing is, it's a symptom of a society that is broken. We don't take personal responsibility anymore. We leave it to government. And government's our big daddy that's going to whip us. We have to get back to the root. We've had 120 years of public education, and every year they spend more and more, and we get dumber and dumber. You send all the women to work. That was part of the women's lip moving. Get them out of the house. Get them to pay taxes. Then you got two taxpayers. But you also get the kids when they're young.

» And you know what Joe Stalin said, Uncle Joe? Give me your kids when they're young, and I'll have them forever. And that's where we're at. We got to turn back to the individual responsibility and the individual liberty that comes with that responsibility. We have to change our ways and make it morally unacceptable to throw trash everywhere. These are sad times. We're in a dark. Y'all know it. The country's $34 trillion now. They passed all kinds of rules, regulations, and everything else. And then y'all are tied by strings from the state and the federal government. So whatever little power you have, you want to whip us with it. We just need to get back to the basics. Don't hurt anybody. And don't steal anybody's stuff. And judge everything from there.

» I hope you guys will reconsider this camera thing. Anyway, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Maddox. The next speaker is Di DeBose. You don't want to speak, Mr. DeBose? How are you? You don't have to speak if you've changed your mind. Well, I just think it's really important. Just speak into the microphone. I just think it's really important. I don't know if any of you have heard of Mary Maker. Do you know who Mary Maker is? Mary Maker has just won the Eclipse Award January 24th, trained by Arch Kingsley and his team, owned by Pierre Manigot. This is a very big deal. It's a very big deal for Camden and Kershaw County and the equine horse industry. So I just wanted to say congratulations and just make everyone aware how important this is.

» This is the leading steeplechase horse in the nation, Mary Maker. Don't forget that name. It's a great name. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. DeBose. All right. That concludes public comments for this evening. Thank you to everyone that signed up and spoke. All right. We're going to move to public presentations. And our first presentation tonight is from Art Kingsley, and he is from Responsible Growth for Kershaw County. Arch, thank you for being here and congratulations. Thank you, Mrs. Gwynne, and thank you all on the council for giving us an opportunity to introduce our organization and to engage with you at this pivotal time in our county story. As stated, my name is Arch Kingsley, and I'm here tonight speaking on behalf of Responsible Growth for Kershaw County.

» Arch, excuse me, did you have a PowerPoint? I don't, no. All right. Thank you. We represent a consortium of concerned citizens that recognize change is coming fast to our county and to our way of life. We believe that it is coming whether we embrace it or resist it. We also believe that we, as shareholders in the county, will be best served with a healthy and open dialogue with our elected leaders. We know the citizens of Kershaw County, formed and collective, can guide and shape that change. As I stand before you in this moment, I will tell you that we believe the single biggest threat to our way of life is the replacement of our open spaces and existing communities with high-density tract housing, underwritten, and for the profit of far-flung land development corporations.

» We believe that the strongest protection against that threat is public dialogue like this, to decide who we want to be going forward in the context of who we already are. We know that the power belongs to the citizens of Kershaw County, working together with our elected leaders. It is in all of our interests to dictate specifically how business will be done in our county when you are working with our natural resources or with our precious places. We also believe that the health of the public sector often depends upon the support of the public sector, and when working together, we can continue to leverage our strengths for a better future. For context on who I am, I was lured to Camden 30 years ago in pursuit of the best of horses and horsemen in American thoroughbred racing.

» I left my native Virginia and made Camden my home. In that span of time, I have run a Kershaw County-based business that has brought more than $20 million through the local economy. I've built a farm, supported a family, raised a child through the public school system, and brought countless clients and young aspiring equestrians to town. Over that same 30 years, I've traveled the world on the backs of horses and had the chance to look back on my beloved homeland through the lens of international racing. Always, I'm proud and warmed by what I see and hear. People of the international thoroughbred world think of Camden, South Carolina as something of racing's Camelot. So many factors have created that brand for us.

» Thanks is due in part to the Colonial Cup and its high profile on the world stage. Thanks is due in large part to the tremendous accomplishments of the countless champion thoroughbreds that have called Camden their home at one time or another. Thanks is due in no small part to the many Hall of Fame horsemen of international claim who have called Camden home. Thanks is due in large part to the generosity and philanthropy from the fortunes that have come to roost in Camden at one time or another. Names like DuPont, Woodward, Firestone, and Wood have preserved open spaces and created top-class infrastructure that has made Camden a highly regarded equestrian destination the world over.

» As citizens of Kershaw County and as members of the group that calls itself Responsible Growth for Kershaw County, we believe that that legacy that we have inherited is as much our privilege as it is our responsibility. We believe the best defense against being absorbed and consumed by faraway-based land development corporations is for all of us, all the shareholders in this civil experiment called Kershaw County, through the channels of civil discourse, to create public policy that can support our existing communities in their surrounding areas. Clearly spelled out and enforced guidelines for when doing business in Kershaw County involves our natural resources or highly appreciated aspects of our heritage.

» We, and you, as an extension of us, the citizens, hold the power to decide what we want to become. It is not for other faraway-based interests to decide what people they are going to thrust upon us. It is for us to decide who we are going to attract and bring into our community. It is for us to commit to building community neighborhoods tied together with comprehensive ideas ideas that complements what already exists and encourage growth and development of similar nature. The alternative is leaving ourselves exposed and unprotected in the face of an impending land grab and redevelopment. We will be unrecognizable in the expanses of high-density developments that effectively serve as crash pads for people who live their lives elsewhere and have no vested interest in our community.

» In effect, creating municipal guide rails that put history, horses, architecture, and open space into the verbiage and, in turn, the decision-making on a government level would be the greatest firewall to the tsunami of population growth and total community makeover that is heading our way. It has been said that all politics are local. This is where the proverbial rubber meets the road and the identity of Kershaw County gets cast in stone. This is where the citizens of the county are dependent on this open dialogue with our elected leaders. Clearly, as a group, responsible growth for Kershaw County is opposed to the annexation of the Camden Training Center for a high-density development for all of the aforementioned reasons and many more.

» However, we believe the stakes are much higher than this solitary issue. What is at stake goes to the core of every citizen's way of life in Kershaw County, turning our open spaces into vast expanses of tract housing, will destroy our tax base, make it nearly impossible to properly educate our children, overwhelm us with traffic congestion, destroy our natural and wildlife habitats, overburden our health care system and public infrastructure, and predictably, we would see spikes in crime and homelessness. Hundreds of years of positive inertia would soon become unrecognizable as it rapidly transformed to a byproduct of corporate consumption.

» The alternative to this dystopian future exists in the thoughtful and mindful management of our natural resources and with the public sector's support of our existing communities. We believe that one way to accomplish this is with overlay districts. As I understand it, an overlay district is perhaps the single best tool of a governing body to protect individual enclaves within a community. An overlay district can serve to encourage certain types of investment that align with and complement the area. As I know this matter is later tonight on the agenda, I won't belabor that point. I was here in the last council meeting where the question was raised about the significance of the naming of Battleship Road. I've brought you all a gift and something of a reading assignment.

» I invite you to delve into this riveting historical nonfiction about this amazing horse, and I'm hopeful that it will do for you as it did for me. That is to give you, the reader, a greater sense of self as a resident of Kershaw County, and particularly in relation to what this place represents to the rest of the world. It's a story about a horse and the people that it takes to produce that type of talent and how they connect with the places where the characters develop their crafts and live their lives. I brought a book for each of you, and I'll hand these up to you when I'm done here. Three weeks ago, I was at an awards dinner for the elite members of the thoroughbred industry.

» Horse racing dignitaries from around the world gathered and tuned in from around the globe to see a horse based in Camden, South Carolina be awarded the coveted prize of America's best steeplechase horse. And once again, a horse put Camden in the spotlight on the global stage. I would like to leave you tonight with one more concept. Imagine the Camden Training Center, which has served as the proven ground for many of the best thoroughbred racehorses in America over the last century, being repurposed as the only one of its kind flagship Junior American Racing Academy. The facility would be ideal in its current state for creating a formal training program for aspiring jockeys, trainers, and ground help. Camden could affirm its reputation as an international equine destination.

» This could be accomplished through a combination of monies raised privately, along with state and national support, coupled with restrictive and supportive local zoning. There already is interest in the property of the Camden Training Center by different entities within the racing world. If the property is valued solely for its potential as a maximum density housing development, it becomes unaffordable for any other thing to be done with it but that. And if that is what becomes of it, that will be the end of that property being a positive for our county, and what will replace it will forever be a liability. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Mr. Kingsley. I have a couple questions. I'm going to yield. Why don't you get us and hold them until we finish? How can I give? He can hold them.

» He'll give them to us. Mr. Templer can take the books. Thank you. I have a couple questions. I'm going to yield to my colleagues if you have questions for Mr. Kingsley. First, I'd like to say I personally do not want to see the property annexed either, and there is nothing I can do about it. So that is unfortunate. I understand. I think that the climate on council would be to not annex it as well, but I'm just speaking for myself. Your group, Responsible Growth for Kershaw County, when was it formed? It was formed originally around the Beechwood development. It was originally, what was it? It was called Preserve Camden for Responsible Growth. Yeah, and it was formed as a 501c3 and then went quiet over some time and then was re-energized around this cause.

» Do you have regular meetings like if somebody is interested in joining your group or getting involved in Responsible Growth for Kershaw County, what should they do? I will refer that to my superiors. We do have regular meetings. We do have a board. We do have a structure. We are a 501c3. And as far as the organization of all of that, I'm not the person to talk to. I just think there's other people that contact me that would be interested in linking up with you and the people that you're working together with. We want them all. Absolutely. Thank you, Katie. And there's something you said, some of the architectural requirements and there was something else you said towards the end.

» And so maybe, yeah, if you don't mind emailing me your speech or your information, that would be really great because I couldn't write fast enough for some of the suggestions. Yes, Mr. Tomlinson. Mr. Dean, thank you. Thank you for the organization, Responsible Growth. That is a great term. We can never prevent growth, right? We have our American right to do with our properties. We won't. But having someone outside of this county who doesn't live here never has any future goals of living here to manage how we're going to live, you know, that specific... The training centers you're talking about being 750 homes, if it is annexed in, that's 2.6 people. That's over 2,000 people. The city of Camden is 7,500 people.

» That's 26% increase in one development, let alone our schools, our roads, our infrastructure. How can we support that? So I think it takes more citizens like yourself, the organization, to come out and really, really speak because, you know, we... I know Councilman Shumate along with Councilman Brazel has taken an initiative to look at our planning and zoning laws and kind of increasing the per unit density, so decreasing density in it. So now we've done it through all zoning ordinances. But thank you for stepping out. We really appreciate all you're doing and appreciate everybody being here in the audience. Thank you, Mr. Tomlinson. I echo that gratitude. Thank you for those remarks. Mr. Brazel.

» I'd like to touch on some of what Councilman Tomlinson just said, we have made steps towards solving the issue. The county. Our minimum density right now is R15. That's 15,000 square feet. So that's slightly over a third of an acre if you have a sewer tap. If it's not a sewer tap, if you're on a septic system, you have to have a half acre lot. That sentiment has not been that of the cities, as I can tell, because I think they still allow a higher density. In our general development, prior to Councilman Shoemate, his efforts, and a lot of discussion among council, we had a 6,000 square foot density, right? So you could build on a 6,000 square foot lot. So what is that? Over seven houses per acre.

» All of our general development properties were allowed for subdivisions to be built at that high of a density. This body has made an attempt, and I say a solid attempt, to solve that problem for Kershaw County. What I'm hearing from you and what I'd like to say is I'd like to see the city reciprocate. I've got friends and colleagues that are on city council. I don't know how they feel about it, but it's not so hard to do. It's not so hard to make an amendment to a law, to an ordinance, that would allow 15,000 square feet. Or you could do a 22,000 square foot lot. I think that solves your problem to a degree.

» I don't know that it keeps it a horse property, but it keeps the big national track builders because they want to cut that piece up into as many small pieces as they can because they're going to get the same money per lot. As a matter of fact, they prefer the smaller lots. It's less grass, less concrete, and they're able to maximize their profits. So I've worked in home building all my life. I agree with your sentiments. Kershaw County has changed since the recession in 2008, and I would like to see Kershaw County grow responsibly as well. However, we do have rights, landowners have rights, to sell their property for highest and best use. But what that looks like is up to the city, and it's up to the county. And I really feel like we've done our part as a council. Thank you.

» Thank you, Mr. Braswell. All right. Any other comments or anything you'd like the public or the council to know? Yes, Mr. Jones. Just want to say thank you for coming out. And another thing, too, I'm going to just take it a step further. Having been here 18 years, I think it's important for everybody to come out and speak to this county council, whether it's about the literal ordinance, whether it's about horses, houses, whatever. We need to hear from you, and believe me, it does make a difference. But it's nice to see your group. I agree with Mr. Braswell on what he said. We still have a lot more to do. But I do think, too, and I'd like this to be verified, Mr. Templer, that our county has probably not grown quite as fast as to some of the surrounding counties that we've got.

» And I'm proud to be able to say that if those numbers are right, if you'll look into it, just to make sure I'm correct on that. But again, I thank you. I support your efforts. And I look forward to working with some of my colleagues who have a lot more knowledge in this than I do in the future. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Right. Thank you. We are going to take a pause in our public presentations and invite Senator Penry Gustafson up to the podium. She is going to give us the District 27 South Carolina Senate update. And thank you for being here, Senator. Ms. Conto, you'll be next. All right. And Mr. Templer, I think she has some handouts. We get two books tonight. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you again for being here. I am thrilled to be here. It's been a while.

» And it's always interesting hearing what is going on in my hometown, hearing what the public has to say about the ordinances planned or not planned and growth issues. and I think what I like to do is just touch on a couple of things related to growth. If you didn't know this, and this is factual, you can Google it if you want to, but South Carolina is the fastest growing state in America. Did y'all know that? It is number one. It is the fastest growing state in America. And we are number five in sheer numbers. That's a lot. We're competing with all these other states. We're number five for sheer numbers. As I travel across South Carolina within the district, and as I talk with other elected officials, whether it be municipalities, local, or state level, growth is the number one concern.

» So the people who are speaking tonight, they're right on target with the rest of South Carolina. I do believe in responsible growth from a state level there is much to be concerned about. The first thing is infrastructure. Our bridges, as we see, so many of them were built in the 1960s, and they're needing to be replaced. I actually met with the SCDOT director, the new secretary, D.O.T., who is Justin Powell this past week. Infrastructure, funding, our first responders, funding, those kind of services, fire, police, EMS, all that. Also, we have to be concerned about broadband expansion. I don't think there's any reason on the planet why every single person in South Carolina can't get access to broadband. I don't understand that.

» There's so much, there's so much money involved with people who are willing to help. Our electric co-ops are wonderful in doing that, but getting so many agencies to work together, that's one of those things I'm working on. It's kind of a continual, never-ending thing. And I do think on my tombstone it's going to say funding fire. I think that's what it's going to say because I talk about fire all the time. We are quite busy at the State House. Let me just go over a couple of things that we've been doing. this past year we repealed the Certificate of Need certification requirement. And what that means for rural South Carolina means better access to medical care. It means better quality of care. And it also means the prices should go down.

» This is what we've seen in states across the United States who have removed the Certificate of Need requirement. That means you have to get permission from the government to add beds to a hospital for example or equipment. So that we also passed a bill that criminalizes and puts it in the code fentanyl trafficking. I know our law enforcement I'm sure y'all are happy with that. I know our sheriff here has used it and has been arresting people all over the place right? Yes. The next thing we need to do though we do need to pass S-1 which is the drug induced homicide bill. That hasn't come up yet. It hasn't been passed yet but fentanyl trafficking was passed into law. We have fixed catch and release.

» We have increased minimum teacher pay in our public schools and we are continuing to increase that pay. I think the goal is to get it to starting rate of $45,000. I think this year was at $42,500. We have funded additional SROs across South Carolina from K through 12. We did give an income tax reduction and in case anybody else if y'all don't know our state income tax is going down incrementally. We passed that into law and it's going down by .1 and with eventually to get down to 6.0 I would like it to be 0.0 personally and I think we can get there. And there's so much I could talk about but I'm going to talk about three bills as briefly as possible. They're three very complicated big bills.

» You've heard about them in the news and I thought I might be able to clear up a few things to let you know what your senator is doing and what your state is doing in regard to these bills. Okay. I'm going to talk about three. I'm going to talk about one that we voted on last week. I'm going to talk about one we are currently debating and I'm going to talk about one that's coming up in the next week or two that we will be starting to debate. The first one is H3594 which is constitutional carry. We passed that in the Senate. It's a House bill. It was sent to us. conform it a little bit more towards the Senate bill to even it out a little bit and add some things that we had in the Senate bill. We sent it back. Today they removed those amendments and sent it back to the original text.

» It looks like it's going to go to conference and that means there will be three people chosen from the House and from the Senate by leadership and they're going to duke it out. We're going to try to find some kind of reasonable agreement on these amendments. In my last legislative breakfast two weeks ago, instead of talking about bills like this, what I did is I talked about the it's very complicated long and it's supposed to be. You want it to be a long time so things can be thoroughly vetted, discussed, amended, or killed if it's just decided to be a horrible idea.

» The process is very long and I've heard all of these lobbyist groups and other people who have said things very negatively about our General Assembly and I just kind of thought on the state level and local level I would let y'all know it is perfectly reasonable and normal for a bill to go from one chamber to the other, be changed for whatever reason and be sent back. I think it's rare that a bill is sent over and it's just immediately approved and sent to the governor if it's very, if it's an important complicated kind of question like anything having to do with firearms. So the Senate's gotten a lot of flack this week, this past week because we dared to change any of the bill but that is what we're supposed to do and I take, I do my job diligently and I consider every single amendment.

» I'm never going to be a senator who says, who's like a complete zero based voter on a bill. In other words, if it's not my way, no. I don't have that, I don't have that line drawn so firmly that I can't at least listen to what somebody else has to say. I think listening is how we get to better legislation. Doesn't mean you agree, doesn't mean you vote on it, but listen. I think that's good for any level of government. So what you have before you is you have amendment 36. This is what we added that was cut on the house side today. I am not going to go through this. Y'all all can read very well and I have some extra copies for other people here if they want it.

» This is the amendment that is in question and I don't think I'm going to get too much more into that right now because I don't know how many hours you want me to talk. So I'm going to stop on that one. The status of the bill is it's being sent back to the Senate with additional amendments and going to conference committee very soon. Senator Luke Rankin head of judiciary will choose one represented for the conference committee and then President Alexander of the Senate will choose the other two on our side. Just so you know how those people are chosen. Okay, what are we debating right now? Well, right now we're debating, oh by the way, voted yes last week for H3594. Right now we are debating medical marijuana. It is a very long bill. It's a very restrictive, conservative bill.

» I am a co-sponsor of this bill. Our veterans in this county, I think we're reaching almost 10,000 veterans now. Maybe y'all could nod. It's about that many? A little less. Okay, in 2020 it was like almost 7,000. But we're increasing in numbers. But I believe in this. I believe that marijuana can be used in various forms very effectively for very specific medical conditions. This bill is the most restrictive conservative bill in America, if it's passed. Every entity you can think of has been involved in writing this bill, and we are still perfecting it. There was an amendment suggested today by Senator Richard Cash concerning pharmacies.

» There's still things to be worked out, but I think in this day and age as the FDA is considering there are going to be moving this bill from class one to a different class of drug, because it's just not the same category where it is right now, where it's set right now, it should not be there. So finally they're starting to consider that. The bill number is S423, and I'm looking for something here. I want to see what I did. Okay, and what I gave you today is I gave you kind of a one-page synopsis, and what has happened, where the bill has been, and where it's going, and I was able to add the little thing on the bottom about today's, we actually passed this second reading in the Senate today with 26 I's, yeses to 17 no's.

» So it passed second reading, we carried over amendments so we can have fresh amendments on third reading. That's kind of unusual unless you ask for it, but we're continuing to work on it and make it better. We expect the House to work on it as well. If we pass it and get it over there, they're going to add their own amendments more than likely, and then we'll get to consider those together. So I want to let you know about that, that the Senate passed this bill last session, and I voted yes the last time, I voted yes this time, and it was sent to the House, but then it didn't go forward from there.

» So it was refiled, and there were additional changes made, conforming changes, sometimes just with dates and whatnot, but changes nonetheless that are a little bit different between 150, which is the original bill, and 423, and that is what I have given you. This was actually given to me today by Senator Tom Davis, who is the main author of the bill. So he, I will not bore you, I promise. Y'all awake? Okay. So anyway, that's for your information, and you can go through it as you wish, and if you want to call me, we can certainly talk about it. Lastly, and this is really important, I've gotten phone calls from three different business owners in Kershaw County in the last 24 hours about S-533. This is the South Carolina Justice Act.

» I don't know who names these things, but it's the South Carolina Justice Act, and what this is, it is tort reform, liability reform. It definitely is supported by our business community, small businesses specifically, and what this bill does is it modernizes our liability laws. Its aim is to rewrite the modified joint and several liability law as it was passed in 2005. It's got 24 sponsors in the Senate. I'm one of them. And, you know, this reform is needed to protect businesses, really put some faith back into the legal system, and ensure justice for everyone who might be impacted. There have been 18 states in America who have either entirely or mostly abandoned joint several liability in favor of determining percentage by fault.

» And I don't want to lose anybody today, so I want to make sure we know what we're talking about. Basically, any part, right now under our law, any party can be held 100% liable, even if they have a very small percentage, as small as 1% of the responsibility of the damage or the injury. So a defendant can be on the hook for all the damages in a lawsuit regardless of their percentage of fault. Well, we do want to protect our victims' rights and make them whole, but that is not fair. That's not right. There are businesses that are one lawsuit away from closing their doors forever, and that's not right. So assigning fault proportionally doesn't mean anyone involved is absolved of their responsibility, but it will, again, protect innocent victims.

» Our state has become so litigious, and that means people are lawsuit happy. We've got out-of-state law firms coming here because of this loose law we have with joint several liability. They are running after these big, big cash-outs and targeting entities that are perceived to have deep pockets. So if somebody thinks you've got money and you've been involved at all with the situation involving a lawsuit, they can go after that one entity. And that's not good. Our premiums have been increased, insurance coverage, the availability of insurance coverage has been affected. And in fact, I found out this week, South Carolina, we are ranked five in the nation for number of people coming to our state, but we're also ranked five in the U.S. in the judicial hell holes report.

» So, you know, these severe sanctions have really attracted out-of-state people. If you want to take some time and look up some asbestos suits in recent years, they have exploded. The number of defendants have exploded. The payouts have been incredibly high. And that's just one type of example. So, we're going to be getting to this next week. We're also working on a number of other issues including judicial reform. We are reforming DHEC and restructuring DHEC in the process of trying to combine several, like, I think it's seven or eight state agencies. So, we just keep on growing like this. So, we're trying to make it more efficient. We have fewer people doing the same job instead of having 20 people do the same job. Definitely needing restructuring.

» Our current grid, electrical grid, is insufficient. We've got an energy bill we're working on. We've been expanding parental choice. I'm working on trying to get hearing aids passed, paid for by our insurance companies. I wear a hearing aid and many people are shocked to hear that insurance companies are not required to cover hearing aid for the ones they insure. And lastly, I just want to mention the Equine Advancement Act. Since there's been so much talk today about our wonderful equine industry and the wonderful things that are happening right now in Camden, the recognition, the national, international recognition for having the best steeplechase horse. It's just, it's great. It's something to be proud of and the rest of South Carolina needs to get it.

» They need to understand what this industry means to us here in Camden and Kershaw County. The Equine Advancement Act is currently being contested by a couple of senators who are absolutely adamant about not letting it go forward. The way we can overcome a bill that is contested by a senator is we can, we can vote to have it set to special order, which basically bypasses contesting. The House cannot do that. They don't, they have different rules. They cannot contest a bill. We can in the Senate. So one person can stop a bill dead. But if you get enough people in the Senate to say, hey, hey, we still want to, we want to debate this bill, take a vote, have the motion, take a vote, and you can put it on special order. We haven't been placed in that spot yet.

» But I want you to know that your other senator, Thomas McElveen, Senator Katrina Sheely and I are working almost daily to try to get this through. And I'm happy to talk to you later about that as well. But it is important to our community. It's important to South Carolina. And we need to keep up. I don't know why we have to be last in so many things. I say modernize, you know, liability laws. There's a lot of things that need to be kind of brought up to par with industry standards. So I support that and I support our businesses. I support our county councils. I thank you each for listening to me tonight. And for your attention and what you do for our citizens. I feel like I am a potential partner with y'all. All you have to do is reach out to me.

» And I'm happy to work with you and the council any way I can that's appropriate. We try to keep state and local separated. Y'all make the decisions for local. But if you need my help, I'm happy, happy, happy to be here and to lend that help to y'all. I am done with everything I'm going to talk about, which is good because I see Mr. Jones hang up. And I am done. I'm completed now with my remarks tonight. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Jones. If I may, Senator, thank you for being here. Let me just start by saying this. I don't agree with you wholeheartedly. However, you're a hard worker. You've done a good job in the Senate. You've done a good job keeping us informed. Regardless of my personal feelings towards certain bills, you've also been there if I needed you.

» And I just want to say thank you for that. And I hope that people realize that when you run again as well. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Yes, thank you. This was very thorough. I know. I know. No, and that's not. I didn't keep track of time. No, that's okay. You didn't have a time limit. Thank you. Thank you. Give me a time limit. At least in this position, I get very tunnel visioned on the local stuff we're doing. So I appreciate you. Let me get out of here. I'm going to be in the I'm going to be out here in the main hallway. If anybody wants to talk like citizens and I'm going to hang out for a while in case one of y'all might. Two questions for citizens.

» How would you like them to contact you if they'd like to get in touch about these, this legislation? My office number is 803-212-6040. My admin is Ms. Williams. And my cell number is printed all over Creation. I'll never be able to change it. It's 803-669-6364. And my email is penrygustafson at scsenate.gov. Thank you. Thank you. One more question about the Equine Advancement Act. How can those citizens get involved? What should they do so that their voices work? I need to contact Senator Chip Kampson. Okay. Contact Senator Chip Kampson. And call his office. Okay. That is a very effective way for Senators and other legislators to listen. Calls to the office. Because somebody is picking up that phone. A person is picking up that phone.

» And if they pick up that phone 20 times a day about this one bill, they'll get the message. Okay. Or 100 times. So he is contesting this bill and is very adamant about it. He would be the one to contact. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Any other questions from Council? All right, Senator. Thank you again. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you very much. And those books are our legislative manuals. All the contact information for all the state elected officials, plus a whole, a plethora of information in there. And if you need more, let me know. I've got some more in my office. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right. Back to public presentations. We are at item eight, bravo. And tonight we have Lynn Conto here from the South Carolina Equine Circuit. My name is Lynn Conto.

» I'm with the Camden Equine Circuit. It's been around since 1997. It provides equine experiences for young people in Camden. Also, we provide educational services. I'm not trying to promote that program. I want to talk to you about the legacy of the Camden Training Center and how legendary it is and some of the horses that have come through that facility and the impact of changing that facility into something else. That facility is the equivalent of, if you had athletes such as Serena Williams, Michael Jordan, Billie Jean King, Tom Brady, and many others, legends, the equivalent of that, of horses, trainers, and training farms have been through that facility. I don't think the average person would understand the type of horses that have actually come through that facility.

» You might understand baseball or basketball or football and understand who the trainers and coaches are for those, but I want you to understand that Weekend Surprise was 1992 Broodmare of the Year went through that facility. Prospector's Delight was 2003 Broodmare of the Year. This is through the whole country. Raja Baba was the 1980 leading sire of North America. He is one of the most, one of the primary foundation sires for thoroughbred racing in our country. Went through the Camden Training Center. And so I'm going to ask Stuart Grant to reconsider developing this project because the problem is you're changing history. You're totally changing history. So today I want to talk to you about the impacts of other areas on this county.

» First of all, the Camden Training Center is going to impact our schools. If you can look up here, you can see the four schools primarily affected and the dates that they were built. That means that our county has put money into these schools recently. The oldest school we have is Camden High School. If you look at the capacity of the schools, the school that would be impacted the most is Camden Elementary School. What do I mean by that is that development would feed specifically into Camden Elementary, Camden Middle, and Camden High School. What would that cause? That would cause us either to have to add on to a school which is not possible to expand at Camden Elementary. There's not enough space. So this would force the school district to rezone.

» What does that mean? That means if your child currently tends Camden Elementary, they may be rezoned for Pine Tree or Jackson. You have to understand this is going to have a big impact on everyone. It's going to affect the number of teachers that we need for such things as STEM, special ed, foreign language, which we already have a hard enough time acquiring. It's going to impact buses. We are already short on bus drivers and we already have to double routes. It's going to impact substitutes. We are limited on substitutes, especially in multiple teachers route. It impacts the car circle line where you have more kids. You have a longer line that feeds into the roads, which impacts the police department or sheriff's department. Class size.

» We already have a hard enough time fitting everyone in a class that it is and the resources for these classrooms. So are you prepared to redraw the attendance lines for your schools? Who's going to pay for that? Who's going to make that decision? Land expansion. Well, in order to build another school, you've got to find 25 acres to build another school. Where are you going to find that land? Who's going to pay for that land? This was not in the Kershaw County School District plan. Forcing the district to build again. If they had to build again, it's going to cost $35 to $40 million to build another school. Now, I'm not just talking about the growth of the Camden training center and converting it to houses.

» All these other housing projects that are going on around the district, this is going to force this. And they're not prepared for this. Let's look at the pass cost. Phase one, when they originally did some changes with the Camden Middle School, Lugoff Middle School, the Wellness Center, new elementary school, and the new elementary renovation projects cost $102 million. The next project was $129 million referendum for the Camden Elementary, Lugoff Elementary, Watery Elementary, and the new ATEC, which is now the Woolard Technical Center. I cannot stress that the school district was not prepared for this amount of growth. They have projections based on previous growths over the year. However, please take into consideration when you make decisions. Now, let's talk about the traffic impact.

» Just 100 houses could be up to 300 more cars on a road. So, let's take the 300 houses proposal. That could be up to 900 more cars on a road. The original proposal was for 800 houses. That could be up to 2,400 cars on the road. What is this going to impact? This is on Battleship Road. It's going to impact the people that live in Kirkover Hills. They only have two exits. One is Five Bridges Road on the Battleship Road, which feeds into the road that leaves the Walmart. That is already a highly congested area. The second area takes you from Chestnut into downtown. This is going to have a huge impact on the people in Camden. Camden's malfunctioned junction we saw when I-20 Bridge was out.

» When you had all the cars in downtown Camden, those cars will either feed into Highway 1 or the 521 bypass from Chestnut Ferry. And then all of them are going to head to the One Light right there by Walmart. The roads impacted are going to be Battleship Road, Carter Street, Chestnut Street, Gordon Street, Green Street, Scott Street, Knights Hill Road, Chestnut Ferry Road, DeKalb, which is Highway 1, and Springdale Drive. So why do I care so much? Well, in 1936, Marion DuPont Scott's legacy was built. She created a one-mile south, top-mile track that was known around the country. If this is developed, you're taking that away. This is a historic venue. It should be a national landmark.

» When looking at the national historic landmark criteria, it checks off each of the boxes to fit that criteria. The equestrian facility was originally owned by Marion DuPont Scott, and her estate sold it to William Farish in 1985, who was the ambassador to the UK. And then to Henrietta George, who sold it to Stuart Grant, who presented himself as a horse person, it was believed at that time that this facility would be sold again to another horse person, and then another horse person. It was not ever intended to be developed into houses. This is an equine property, and it should be preserved. How do we know it was an equine property? Because there is a bridle path that stretches from the Camden Training Center to Springdale Racecourse.

» That indicates that this is an equine property and should remain an equine property. Who are some other animals and people that were at this training center? Some horses were Tom Roth, who was the champion three-year-old and top sire in our country. Ruffian. There's a movie after Ruffian. Forgrove was the racehorse of the year. Some top training barns were Shadwell, Lane Zen, Ogden Phipps, Calumet, Darby Dan, and Spindthrift all went through the Camden Training Center. These are the top, top group in the country came through the Camden Training Center. Horse trainers history. This is home and winter to some legends, literally legends, talked about all over the country, internationally even. Frank Whiteley, Neil Howard, Joe Canty, P.G. Johnson, and Billy Turner.

» William Billy Turner, trainer of Seattle Slew. How many of you are familiar with the Triple Crown? He trained one of the Triple Crown winners. There's only been 13 in the whole country. That's huge. Huge. Sheikh Hamadan bin Rashid al-Maktoum, the deputy ruler of the United Arab Emirates. It's like the king. Trained horses in Camden. Out of the Camden Training Center. He had two derby entries in the same race. Mohamed and Shagaf. Do you know statistically how impossible that almost is? This is with Shadwell. You know, I did a little bit of... Ms. Canto, I'm sorry to interrupt you. You have about five minutes left, and I want to give council an opportunity to have a dialogue with you. Okay. So I just want to let you know. Okay.

» I went to the website just to see what was on there, and this is what I found. Under Mr. Grant's website for the Camden Training Center, it says, I think it means an awful lot to the community, and it provides a lot of jobs and a good for the city. This is his own website. I also went back and looked at a blood horse article. He was doing a court case in Columbia, and he said, Every Saturday morning during the trial, I'd go early in the morning to the Camden Training Center and watch my horses train. It was a happy place. Blood pressure went down. So I don't understand why anybody would want to develop it into houses. It doesn't make sense. Most importantly, this property hasn't really changed a whole lot since 1936, other than things being rebuilt.

» And these animals live in that area, and if you develop it into 300 houses or 800 houses, their homes go away. Some of these are on endangered list. Also, we're a small town. That's the charming part of Camden. If you start working towards a larger city, you're going to have more crime, higher population, traffic congestion, complex issues. I don't think that's the way we want to go. What's the scary part? The median household income in Camden is about $44,000 to $50,000. Median home value is $211,000. Who is going to buy a $300,000 house, especially if there's 300 or 800 of them? Not to mention the cost. The payment for a $300,000 house is a $1,800 payment. So I took a teacher's salary just out of curiosity.

» It would take a teacher who has a PhD, a doctorate, 14 years working to be able to afford this house, just out of curiosity. So I also wanted to look and see, based on the median household income, what they could afford. And what they can afford is $51,000 to $89,000 property. Or if they wanted to rent, the minimum would be a $600. And you know, I rent properties. I know it's not easy to find a $600 property. It's not even really realistic. So what could you do with a training center? Well, you can make it more reasonably priced, where you do a monthly fee instead of a yearly fee, provide dorms for people to stay, and other amenities. You can turn the facility into a visitor center, very similar to the one in Kentucky. It has over 500,000 visitors.

» You could do trail rides from the training center to Springdale. You could do pony rides, gymkhana games, trail classes, jockey training, equine science classes. You could do horse trials, very similar to the Ellery trials, match races, pony races, horse show rentals, endurance rides, wedding and event rentals, and a layer station or quarantine stabling. This is just some of the things that could be used for. I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with you about this facility. It is a legendary facility. Stuart Grant doesn't realize, maybe he does realize what he has, but legends were here. And you can't just wipe over that. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Ms. Kanto. And thank you for the presentation and the research. It's very helpful.

» I think there is kind of an expectation that this council can stop this or do something. And while I personally don't want to see houses go there, Mr. Grant does own the property. So as long as he develops within our zoning code, he has every right to do so. So I just wanted to put that out. Ms. Kanto, have you been to the school district to give this presentation? Can you come back to the podium, please? I haven't been to the school district, but I gathered some of the information from the school district. Okay, that might be a good idea. It's just a recommendation, a way to continue to use your voice and public presentation, the school board. You brought up an interesting point about the National Historic Landmark and the overlays.

» The property owner, those are things the property owner would have to request. So I hope that you are confident that we are doing everything that we can within our legislative power and policy writing. I don't want to see it be developed either. I'm just going to encourage your group to continue to brief the public and band together. Also with the city of Camden. Can I say one other thing? Yes, ma'am, go ahead. This summer, I went, I know this has seemed weird, but I went to North Carolina to visit Mayberry. And it was from a fictional TV show. You remember Andy Griffith? That show, they preserved his house, the jail. Do you know how many visitors they have come through that area? And that's from a fictional TV show. This is real. Real legends came through here.

» I know that you're limited in what you can do, but I would hope that you encourage that we preserve this place. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Any other questions for Ms. Canto? Yes, Mr. Cato. Ms. Canto, I just want to thank you. We had spoken earlier, and I thank you for this presentation and all the hard work you put into it. And I hope you take it around and show it to a lot of others because I agree with you 100%. Thank you. I'd like to... Yes, Mr. Basel. ...encourage you, all the wealthy people and the princes and the kings and the people that have lots and lots and lots of money that want to ride horses there, find one that'll buy it because, as Chairwoman Gwen said, it's not in our purview to tell someone what and how to use their property or whether or not they can or cannot sell it.

» Yeah, of course. But we have certain rules and stipulations, as I stated earlier, within our zoning regulations, it would be more favorable than it would be under higher density. I totally agree. I do think that what needs to be understood is the amount of money he's wanting to make from it is probably not a reasonable price to purchase the property. And I would hope that he would consider selling it at a reasonable value instead of high market value based on a market analysis. And I'm hoping... You've got development costs that will be subtracted. So I hope it works out, too. I think it's wonderful that there's a group wanting to preserve it. I'm not a horse person. Yes, sir. But I think it's wonderful that it's a big part of Camden. It's a big part of Kershaw County.

» I'd love to see that happen. But unfortunately, there's not a stopping mechanism that we have, not a teetotal stopping mechanism that we have. Yes, sir. I understand. That would actually take an act of Congress. And there are working laws and rights that people have. So when I heard several weeks ago, it's a done deal. So it's a done deal? I have no idea. I'm telling you that... Because that was before all the zoning and planning meetings and things. So I think it's probably... If I had to guess, it'll probably be annexed into the city. I will carry this message to the city. We can't prevent that. We cannot stop that. We don't have any say. That's not an opportunity. That's not an opportunity. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Advocacy. Absolutely. Sorry, Mr. Brasel. Go ahead. No.

» To your point... I'm sorry. I can't see who said that. It would be my recommendation that it stays in the county. I'll put that on the record. It's Russell Brasel's recommendation that the property not become annexed and stay in Kershaw County, not within the city. And I think that you'll see that our ordinances are more favorable than a higher density in the city. If Chairwoman allows it. So this is Ms. Conto's presentation. So I'm going to yield to her. You do have to come to the podium.

» As water and sewer are not available, if this stays in the county and it's not annexed, which is if it's all your recommendation for it to stay in the county, then the lots would all have to be a half an acre and hopefully, you know, it would not be as profitable for him and maybe we could find other resources because I would certainly like to see everything that they've presented stay that way too. But is it not true also that because all of these will probably be owner-occupied, they will all be at a 4% tax rate? So therefore, the school district will not receive any money from that 4% for future projects. It only receives money with a 4% tax rate. Just like every other house that's owner-occupied in this county. Correct.

» And as to the acreage, if I may jump in, the acreage, without water and sewer, it's actually a minimum one acre lot size, but water is a little more, water is a little more tricky. Most people can get that. So you're right, without sewer, it's a half, so it's a point, if it's our most dense district, it's 0.34 with water and sewer. Without sewer, it's a half acre minimum lot size. Without water and sewer, in other words, if you have to do a well, it would be a minimum lot size of an acre. So that would be how they break down. So I think all of our, you know, we would all like to see you all speak to, we've all spoken to our city councilman and our mayor, and I think we would like to all see all of you speak to them.

» Because your zoning is a lot stricter, and I know you're doing a lot more towards it, and 6,000 square feet, you know, doesn't make sense, unless you're doing something like a South Hill development, that's just a little something for older people, but you don't need that many. But, you know, our school system is just, they're not going to get any money from this, and we can't afford to educate all these kids with 4%. Yes, ma'am. I would be happy to call the mayor, and unfortunately their meetings are on the same night as ours, or I would say I would go to a city meeting on behalf of the city. I don't mind that, and just like Mr. Brazel, you can put my opinion on the record, too. I don't want them to annex it. I want it to stay in Kershaw County.

» Okay, and whatever, but is that the case? So that's a much longer explanation than we probably have a time tonight, but if you want to email me, I can tell you that the city is wrong on that. I know what you're talking about. I watched that part of the city brief. The city's wrong on that. The city makes assumptions that don't exist out there. They're wrong. Right, like they make assumptions that don't exist. So the short version is the city is incorrect, and I'd be happy, and I've expressed, I think everyone up here has expressed that we wouldn't like to see that property annexed. But no, that is not a correct statement. That's a much more nuanced answer, which I'd be happy to sit down and walk through with you.

» Well, I just want to thank you all for doing something with our zoning and really looking at responsible growth for Kershaw. Yes, you will. Yes, thank you. Madam Chair, can we get her name for the record, please? Ms. Moore, can you come back and give us your name for the record, please? Tommy Moore's daughter. No, I'm Tommy Cobb's daughter. I don't even know that. Well, you've got to realize I've known her and Tommy Moore and Tommy Cobb all day. Okay, but I am Lisa Moore, Lisa Cobb Moore. There we go. It's good to see you. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. Even though we started at 7 o'clock this morning. So it feels like it's Kanto. Anything else? Thank you again for your presentation. Thank you. All right, we are up to item number nine, executive session.

» Is there a motion to enter executive session? We have two matters to discuss, a personnel matter and then a legal briefing. Okay, move to enter executive session by Mr. Shoemake. Is there a second? Second by Mr. Tomlinson. Discussion? Second by the county attorney. Okay, council members and county attorney. Is that correct? Yes, if I may. Yes, Mr. Duns. I wasn't here when that was changed and of course I had certainly in favor of it but you know, we have a lot of folks that hear about the literal ordinance and I hate to see them have to sit here and wait while we go in there and do our due diligence at executive session and we don't know how long it's going to take. Just because of the number of people that got up and spoke, I wish we could handle that first. Mr.

» Duns, the agenda was amended and it had a favorable vote. I did not want to amend it but it did pass. I'm going to amend it so many folks can speak on the letter. I hate to make them sit here and wait for us because listen, we're not going to be short in there. You know, it could be a few minutes. We've got a lot of discussion ahead. We've got one, two, three, we've got four items ahead of the letter yet so yeah, it's going to be a long it's going to be a long time either way. We'd have to amend the agenda. We're not going to amend the agenda because this agenda is what passed. Mr. Duns, legal opinion that I make an amendment to change that or not now. The agenda was already reached, adoption of the agenda and amended and approved so I think it is the agenda before the meeting.

» I'm good, that's fine. All those in favor of entering executive session indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, and those opposed, Mr. Jones. We are now in executive session. Thank you. Madam Chair, from, um, to come out of executive session. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Tucker with the motion. Is there a second? Second by Mr. Cato. Any discussion on coming out? Okay. Um, council did go into executive session. We discussed a personnel matter and received a legal briefing from Mr. DuBose. All those in favor of coming out of executive session indicate by raising your hand. Okay, Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, all those opposed. Mr. Jones. And we are out of executive session. Back to our agenda.

» So we are on item number nine, approval of minutes. This is for the Tuesday, January 23rd regularly scheduled meeting. Is there a motion to approve these minutes? Okay, motion to approve Mr. Shoemake, second by Mr. Tucker. Any discussion, any updates, changes, or corrections? Once again, Ms. Pilar, very good job. Thank you. All those in favor of approving the Tuesday, January 23rd, 2024 meeting agenda or meeting minutes indicate by raising your hand. And the vote is unanimous. Those minutes will go on record. Okay, item number 10, discussions. First discussion tonight, we have an update on the 2024 initiative to defies the 2008 general obligation bonds put on the agenda by Councilman Brasel. Councilman Brasel, Mr. Brasel, you have the floor.

» So I think at this point we just need to hear from the finance committee on what was discussed and what they want to do moving forward or what the recommendation is moving forward to defies these bonds to create higher revenue so that we can do all these projects in the county that we have on our plate. Mr. Tucker? Fair enough. I was going to read those recommendations when it got down to new business and open up some dialogue for council if they like. We did have a recommendation back from our auditor number and actually you got a zone number 6C on what he had recommend in reference to our bonds and we also had a discussion council during the retreat. Russell, do you need? You didn't get a copy. So, yeah. In reference to what those numbers oh, there's an extra copy right there.

» What those numbers look like by paying off bonds and I think you're looking into that information as well on what savings that will create. Okay. All right. So, what do you think we should do? Well, I think we, I'm asking what those numbers are. If we pay off bonds, what will be our savings over, you know, X amount of years on what will be accumulating in savings? I think, if I remember correctly, it was bond B from the sewer it was six hundred and some odd thousand dollars left on that bond and if we paid it off, we would create a quarter million dollars of revenue a year that it's costing us and we talked about reapplying that millage. All that's in the county's audit. It's on page 43, I think. Yeah, and I don't have that book with me, so that's what I was looking for.

» So, here's what I propose to further this discussion in a better manner. Could we have the gentleman, Mark, could we have him present again and have an open dialogue with him about how to defuse these bonds? Because what I don't want to do is I don't want to handcuff counsel to he said, she said in the finance committee meeting when we can have the man here himself and I'd like to place him on our next agenda. Thank you. We won't meet any more finance until March. Okay, but we also asked him to come to council. We just didn't want to set a date with him, so to have the same discussion. Yeah, well, let's have him at our budget if it works in his schedule. February 27th. Because I think there's a real way to save money.

» We have $7 million and these notes say that we need to leave millions of dollars in the bank and of course we will. We'll spend a little bit to gain a little and if we use that strategy in the same way that we do in our household budgets and our business budgets, I think we can make some strides over the next two or three years towards doing things that we need to here in Kershaw County.

» Right, and I think that's where the question came in from the finance committee is that if we do your plan, what does that look like? How much savings is that over say the next three to five years that we could possibly accumulate and how much reserves would that use that won't allow us to do projects that we're committed to already such as our skip grant? So if you paid off $600,000 and you gained a quarter million dollars in the same year, you would have a net loss of $350,000 for that year, and that would be a reserve number, so I don't think it's going to affect the budget at all. We would just dip $350,000 in the reserves in order to do that. Mr.

» Brazel, if I may, because I want to jump in before I had walked in just for a couple of minutes to the finance committee meeting, Mark was speaking on this, and I don't know how he feels. I'm very much in favor of what you're doing. I support what you're doing. But I feel like that, I don't know if he's going to think it's a reality, because I was getting from him the other time when he was in the finance committee meeting, it wasn't really, am I right, Sammy? And I looked at the finance committee, and I looked at him, and I said, what y'all are doing building up a defense? Remember I said that? I meant that, so I don't know what you're saying. When he and I were in the accounting firm, he didn't tell me it was a bad deal.

» So that's why I want to bring him here in front of the office at one time, so that there's no said, she said, and that we can get a clear point. It was said to you what you're saying, and I know what I heard in there, and I'm hearing two different things. So let's air it out, let's get it out and open, I want you to know, they know. At the end of the day, politicians want to spend money, not save money. I like what you're doing. You're talking about paying off debt. We've got to change the narrative. We've got to drive this in a better direction. To be clear, this is simply reiterating what he told us. We didn't tell him. That's what the auditor told us.

» That's why I think having him in, and I will say, the issue, his hesitation was, as I recall, not so much with the sewer bond you're talking about. I don't think that's that big. I think that's very doable. I think the issue was with some of those older 2008 bonds, the large bonds. Those were where he was talking about having to dip into cash reserves. See, I hadn't brought those up, so I don't even know why you're all talking about that. I agree with you. That's why I'm telling you, the sewer bond I don't think is going to be a problem. It is. Mr. Brazel, thank you for being creative. I think that maybe the auditor, and when he's here, we can just ask him, you came up with something that hasn't been done, so there's always resistance to that.

» Maybe not resistance, but you're being creative in ways that people generally aren't in county government. I'm wondering if his perspective is, well, why would you do that? That's not typically what's done. I just want to commend you for being creative on this. Atypical. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Can I say something? Yes. Mr. Templer. Hey, Danny's here. We have been attacking these two pieces of debt consistently. 2008B is debt service fund, and that is the lowest. It's the East Camden sewer line. We make payments in the third and fourth quarter on these. We've made a $104,000 payment, so the debt right now stands at $563,930. We're going to make another payment in the fourth quarter, $105,314.53. It's going to take that debt down to $458,616.

» I plan to pay that debt off with the debt services reserves coming up. That's a small enough number that I can tackle that and get that done, because that's where we're going to make our most headway with debt service fund. The sewer fund, on the other hand, 2008A, is probably by the time we have our budget set, is going to be $1.1 million. We'll look at different ways to take that down, but that's going to be the next bond that we look to pay off early. We're going to probably pay them off probably two to three years early. There's no penalties on these. The current rate on these debts are 2.5%. That's just where we're at in the immortization schedule. So I think we're on the right track here. I think we're doing what we need to do.

» You think Russell's on the right track? I think we're all on the right track. I think staff has been on the right track. I think Mr. Brazel has asked about something. We've kind of gone in and sharpened our pencils. We've looked at what needs to be done. So we're going to be able to do the 2008 B. We'll get that paid off this year. That's what I needed to hear. I don't know. Mr. Templer, I don't think that anyone up here thinks that you aren't attacking it or that staff isn't. I think Mr. Brazel, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, it just wants to be more aggressive. Exactly. How would I know what you're doing on a day-to-day basis? I applaud you for being proactive, but that is something I wanted to be more aggressive.

» And if I don't bring that to this dais, if I don't bring that to this microphone, then it doesn't happen. If I don't talk about a boat ramp, it doesn't happen. If I don't talk about solutions to any problems, it doesn't happen. That's why we're here. Yes, sir, for years. I knew we'd been paying off bonds. This is the first time you heard about that. Sir? This is the first time you heard about paying off the bonds. He's told me that there was a more aggressive approach, but the amortization schedule still had four years left on that bond. Is that right? Correct. One was 27 and the other is 26. So maybe it was three years. So here we are able to pay it off early and capture that revenue and reapply it where it needed. Maybe the A bond that's 1.1 million. Maybe we can double up.

» How long have you been talking about this with us? Just since the first of the year I think. A few months, a couple months. So I think that's wonderful. If we can get one done this year, then we'll look at the next one and move forward and we'll keep nudging the ball forward. I think a government that's out of debt is a government that's well run. I know we'll probably never be completely out of debt. But if we had the ability, so it's only seven of us, we've got the ability to make change because we've worked together. We're not a huge body, we're not a body of 50 or 100. We can work together and we can make these things happen for Kershaw County. And there are things that we can do in the community that make sense.

» You know, I've been on the side of supporting projects that cost money, that weren't popular. And I'm okay with that. I fully stand by every vote I've ever made while sitting on this council. But I think at this point in time, we've got a couple of opportunities. We can take care of these bonds. We can get them paid off and we can move forward. Well, I applaud you, Russell, for speaking up and trying to look at different ways of doing things. And I hope you'll continue to look forward to paying the rest of our debt off. Well, all I would ask from the administrator is that we have that in writing and we have a plan in place in the budget. Well, you want to be informed too, Russell. That will inform me, yes, correct.

» Russell, if I could say, you know, a lot of times as we go through the budget, the administrator doesn't know how lean or how gifted I would say the budget is going to be until he gets in the third and fourth quarter and that's pretty much why he tries to make the payments because he cannot miscalculate because then, of course, you know, during the months of the summer, spring and summer, we don't collect a lot of money. So we have to be very reserved on our spending and our projections because the bulk of our money comes in from December to March and then we're living off what we collected pretty much.

» There's still some revenue streams coming in like the state's paying quarterly, there's, you know, vehicle taxes and things of that nature, but for the most part, the bulk of our money is collected from December to March. Am I correct by saying that, Mr. Templer? Correct, and the amount of payments we have made over the years fluctuate because it is based on the excess we have from debt service reserves. So to say that we're going to spend the same amount every year, I just can't say that, and I only know that in quarter three or four. So looking at my projections here, I feel confident that we'll be able to pay 2008B off in its entirety based on the projections we're getting.

» I'm glad you had those numbers because I can't find mine and that's what I was going to put with our report from the finance committee, but we've already discussed it and I hope it helps Mr. Brazel out and I'm looking forward to having instill the dialogue with the auditors. I'm looking forward to seeing Danny have that included in the budget. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Brazel. Anything else? Okay. Moving on to our next discussion. We're on 10 Bravo. Needed fire hydrants for the Pine Grove Road placed on the agenda by Councilman Brazel. Mr. Brazel, you have the floor again. Okay, thank you. Sorry. Two in a row. So I had a few phone calls as our county has grown and a few houses have been built down Pine Grove Road.

» There was a lack of fire hydrants and I would ask this council to consider, and Mr. Glover, would you like to speak to this, spending $12,000 to install two hydrants on Pine Grove Road. It's not a huge ask, but if we can find that in the budget. That's something the administration should be able to handle, shouldn't it, without coming forward? Well, and I don't want to step on Chief's toes. I know he had some other concerns and needs as well, but when you hear from the people that, hey, we feel like our houses maybe are not protected because there's not a hydrant for miles, I've got to bring it to light. Mr.

» Templer, is that something that can be accomplished now or in the next budget cycle? Monetarily, it's within my purview to spend $12,000, but operationally, I would defer to the Chief based on his needs unless Council wanted me to find the money outside of a fire budget. Okay. So I would prefer direction if that's the case from Council. When this issue was brought up about the fire hydrants, it's not an issue that's just in one district, it's across the whole county. So I threw together a quick document to kind of show you how we are with water sources across the whole county. And just to give you an idea of where we're at. In terms of ISO, you're either classified as a hydrated district or a hall water district.

» We are a hall water district because of the lack of water sources across the county. Any hydrants that we can get in addition to what we have now would be beneficial, but there are certainly areas that are lacking more so than others, especially on the east side of the county. the Buffalo Mount Pisgah area, Cassett, Charlotte Thompson area, those are all lacking. So if we're going to look at trying to add water sources into the budget coming up, currently we don't have any room within our budget to fund these because we're still trying to replace outdated equipment such as nozzles, hoses, to use hydrants, and some other things within the fire budget currently.

» You know, it's a struggle every day to make sure that we have PPE on our guys and women, you know, replacing nozzles that are sometimes just as old as I am. So we did not budget any hydrant installations into our budget currently. I have talked to Cassett Water several times about things that we can work with them. They're currently about to put in a line from Cassett Road to Rogers Road down Highway 1 that would support hydrants, so I have been in communication with them about possibly trying to get hydrants on that road, maybe in next budget year, but that's kind of where we stand now, and I wanted to put this document in front of you so you could kind of see as a whole of where we're at in the county is hydrants. What are you asking us for? I'm just giving information.

» You know, in the future, you know, it's something that we could definitely try to work into our budget, but it'll only be one or two a time because of the expense. $12,000? That's what I was going to ask. There's $6,000. Well, it depends. $6,000 for the actual hydrant, and then most of the water companies will put them in with no cost. Some of the ones that I've been working with Cassett on are $16,000 to $2,000 to place an adapter on a pop-off is what they call it, or a blow-off for them to allow us to hook up to it. $1,000 foot of every residence, but that's just not attainable. We have some residents that are four or five miles away from hydrants. We have some residents that are within 100 feet of a hydrant.

» So, you know, without really diving in and selecting certain places to put hydrants that have lines capable, that's the other thing. Some of Cassett Waters' lines just will not sustain a hydrant, or some of Bethune rules won't sustain a hydrant. So, we have to work with them also, but, you know, any additional funding that we could get for hydrants would be beneficial to put hydrants in. I'm never going to turn down any kind of funding for hydrants. Were you going to export it in your budget? Next year? This year? Yeah, yes. That was my question. Because you're the expert. We can't vote it down or vote it up. And the thing is, is operating within the budgets that we had in this past year, we had other priorities such as hose, nozzles, appliances to go on truck to support water operations.

» So, it just didn't make that check mark in this year's budget. So, Chief Glover, it didn't make it in last year's budget, and it might not make it in this year's budget. We still have a lot of equipment that we carry everywhere that is very crucial to being used. We still have hose that's two and a half inch on top of trucks that are for supply hose. We're trying to switch all that over to five inch. We've done three trucks this year, but that's $30,000 just to switch those trucks over to new hose on supply hose. So, those are the things that we're trying to hit right now, and then we'll continue to look at other projects as we move forward. We look forward to seeing your recommendations.

» Chief, I'm going to ask what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask for those two hydrants outside of your budget, and I know if it's something that we wanted to do, and just like the administrator said, anything under $25,000 is in his purview to purchase. I'd like to make an official request now to do that. If we need to put it to a vote at the next meeting, that'd be fine, but can you work with the Pine Grove Fire Department to make sure that the locations are proper in Lugov-Helz and Water? Yes. Mr. Basil, can we put it on the 27th and give Mr. Templer time to find money out of his budget and then give you time to find the location and then all kind of come back on the 27th? Yeah, that's fair. Any discussion? I think then we look at the broader scope of your needs.

» There's a wide variety of areas that do need hydrants, especially on the east side too, so that would be something to look at in the future. Once we get that together, we'll continue to push that forward. Thank you. I look forward to seeing your priorities. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Brasel. Thank you. All right, next item, 10 Charlie, planning and zoning overlay district. I put this on the agenda, last agenda, and then didn't get to meet with Mr. DeBose or planning and zoning. It's just for discussion. It's just for you all to think about as we get into the comprehensive plan. Basically, an overlay district could be a tool that we could use to flex certain zones in and out of to meet certain criteria or development project. We can plan development a little better if we had an overlay.

» There's different types of overlays. I just wanted to get your feedback, get you thinking about it, and ask you to consider putting something like this, and maybe it's in a form of bringing back the conservation district in our next comprehensive plan. Just open up the floor to you all. You have an equine legacy area. that's an example from Maryland. It kind of reads like a comprehensive plan, but that's just an example of what an overlay district could accomplish if we had one. So, Madam Chair, this is something you're looking at as part of our big comprehensive plan.

» So, if I'm understanding them correctly, and just to be clear for folks listening, and you tell me if I'm wrong here, one of the benefits of an overlay or flex district is, so you look at West Waterloo, where we have a lot of R15, some R6, some R10, but a lot of R15, obviously there's some issues with the residential growth. What a flex district would do is, you could say for this particular high residential area, we're only allowing, and this is an extreme example, but we're only allowing industrial uses in this area, and that's a flex that could come off. Is that kind of how that would, is that your understanding? I just am not super familiar. Yeah, so my understanding is, and I might have to defer to Mr.

» DeBose as the expert, if we have a property with a base zoning and let's say the citizen wants to do something a little bit out of that base zoning, we could flex them into the zoning overlay that we have, whatever we've decided. With the trade-off, they will make things look a certain way, or they will have certain dimensions, or it's almost like we can, Mr.

» DeBose, correct me if I'm wrong, plan it, we can flex them without completely rezoning, without going through the rezoning process, we can say, okay, if you meet this criteria, whatever it is, whatever we're trying to accomplish, you know, let's use the equine area as, okay, if you want to flex into the equine overlay, you have to do this, you have to have so much green space, or you have to do X, Y, and Z, and then you're allowed to use that overlay in that situation. Mr. DeBose. Yeah, so that's a pretty fair synopsis. most of these overlay districts are in their application to a specific property initiated either by council rezoning or citizen rezoning. It's kind of like layers of the apple.

» The way I've seen flex districts conceived and work is say you have an R15 project like Madam Chair referenced and you're a developer and you want perhaps different setback standards or, and this is kind of anathema to council's general policy prerogatives lately, but if they wanted more density, a flex district would be imposed on top of the base zoning. Base zoning would provide general guidance for what would be allowed, but the flex zoning district would essentially allow for relaxation of certain standards and a trade-off for increases in other standards. Typically they have a floor and ceiling established, but again, the goal is to allow developers some flexibility in return for certain concessions to local government for, you know, improved design standards.

» Are these like small-scale PDDs? They're sort of, they are sort of like That's what it reminds me of, yes. Now, backing up one layer, so flex districts are usually accomplished by some kind of overlay process, but you also have general overlay districts that could be imposed by council rezoning of large geographic areas. You typically see those with like a highway corridor overlay district. district. If council, from a policy perspective, said that it doesn't like the general appearance of Highway 1 or 521 fronting businesses, et cetera, et cetera, you can impose a highway corridor overlay district that spans a certain number of feet off each side of a major highway corridor and has heightened design standards or just different design standards than a general, say, GB property would have.

» You'd put an overlay over a specific area to achieve a certain goal. Same thing could, in theory, be done by with equine districts. You could rezone properties to impose a general overlay over a large area of property with common characteristics to meet common policy goals. You can also, though, have these overlays where they are optional and people can opt in to them. If they want to preserve their property in a certain matter, they can elect to have this rezoning with an overlay on top and it would, could conceivably, again, require heightened standards for certain things. Property owners could voluntarily limit, say, density or just the character of development with an overlay. So, sorry for the dissertation, as Mr.

» Jones says, but I wanted to make sure I gave you all a fairly complete, as concise as I could, but nuanced discussion of overlay districts and how they're used. How we got to this discussion is I was asking about rezoning certain areas of the county, which would be very time-consuming, tedious. Yes, yes. It'd be massive to rezone the entire county to what we want our future to look like. So, this was an option. Instead of rezoning an entire district, or an entire area, okay, if we had an overlay, it might accomplish that. And again, it's just exploring it at this point in time, seeing what you guys think. Are there other counties that do it in South Carolina? Yeah, a lot of counties have general overlay districts. The one that is most commonly seen is a highway corridor overlay district.

» And again, usually that is because a local government has decided that it wants certain design standards and aesthetics on its major thoroughfares. Like Highway 1, for example. Correct. For whatever reason, you know, you see certain things like requiring parking behind the structures or limitations on how large building signs can be. Yeah, the town of Elgin has one business overlay district. So, and then you have these other overlay districts where you can, again, identify certain geographic areas that you might want to treat differently and mandate a rezoning. But have it be discreet to certain areas. You could use an overlay district to, which is what you do in a highway corridor overlay.

» Address specific geographic areas versus rezoning, say, all of the R15, all of the B3 or whatever designation you would have. Rather than rezone all of those types of properties county wide, you could address specific areas that have specific needs. And you could either allow people to opt in or you could just say we're going to rezone 200 properties over here because of X, Y, and Z policy reasons to preserve X, Y, and Z historical, natural resources, whatever the case may be. But those are broad policy considerations for all, not necessarily legal considerations. Okay, thank you. And I'm sorry we didn't get to meet on it yet. I just put it on to start the conversation. Now, would it completely take place of a PDD? No, I don't think so. It would just be maybe a less formal option.

» Is that a good way to put it? Another tool. You know, PDDs require a non-residential component. The Planning Act enumerates many ways that local government can enact zoning regulations, but it also has kind of a catch-all provision. These aren't PDDs. I've seen some of them operate sort of like PDDs, but again, then you see your more garden variety overlay districts, like a highway corridor, and it's fairly classic zoning. It's just, again, an overlay of heightened standards in some areas and perhaps reduced standards in others, but it's uniform and usually in a certain geographic area. Long answer, yes, it's sort of like PDD. Yes, thank you.

» And I also plan on meeting with the Responsible Growth for Cershaw County group and getting their feedback and what kind of overlay districts they think would be helpful. we know that some of our zones are just outdated because we haven't done a massive rezoning countywide, so it might be helpful, it might be not, but it's something to consider. Also, talking to the contractor for our comprehensive plan, getting their expertise on how they've seen it been used to see if it would be helpful. Real quick, just touching on the flex plan, district, whatever you want to call it. I still want to make sure that we keep our highest density at 15,000 square feet no matter how they flex. So, if you can flex from one acre to R15, I would hate to see something go from R15 denser.

» I just want to make sure that the language is written in a way that that couldn't happen. So, that wouldn't be a concession that we would trade? I don't think below 15,000 square feet. Does it come in front of us? Or does it go to planning and so on? Because PDD comes in front of us. PDDs do, and the way that I've seen these structured is with the ultimate thought that it would appear, and again, I'm talking about flex and not general overlay districts, but the way I've seen flex districts conceived is that it would come to secondary component where you would want to bind the developer to the plan they said they were going to do.

» So, the beauty of that, Councilman Brazel, is like a PDD, they'd have to come in front of us, so I could conceive a weird scenario where maybe somebody wants to do a dense community but then have this football field of green space, but we'd be able to have one-off independent, right? We'd have one-off independent ways to look at that. Again, the way I've seen it structured is a developer would, if they didn't already have the base zoning district that they wanted to utilize, might even rezone to a different base district, but it would be in concert with this overlay and again, specific plans that they would agree to. And again, these are broad strokes, but typically it is a force trading venue with again, floors and ceilings as to how far the county will ever go on certain aspects.

» Because I agree with you, Councilman Brice, I think it's important that we maintain that. Yeah, the ceiling being 15,000 square feet. Thank you. All right, anything else? All right. Moving on to item number 11, ordinances. First ordinance tonight, a second reading, an ordinance to amend the official zoning map of Kershaw County to rezone approximately .92 acres of a property owned by Richard and Janice Deal and located on the north side of Bradley Road with an address of 1523 Bradley Road, Camden, South Carolina from R10 Medium Density Residential District to GD General Development District. Is there a motion for this ordinance at this time? Madam Chair, I'd like to make a motion that we approve. Okay. Mr. Tomlinson with a motion to approve. Second by Mr. Tucker. Yes, ma'am, please. Okay.

» And into discussion, Mr. Tomlinson, you have the floor. Thank you, Madam Chair. First reading of this back in January. With looking through the paperwork, it was recommended by Planning and Zoning Commission that with unanimous vote that we approve the rezoning. Also, with recommendation from staff, specifically, the reason I am supporting this initiative is because he does own the other two adjacent sections of property, which are general development now. He has stated publicly in a meeting, plus in the Planning and Zoning meeting, that his intent and goal is to add more storage. With that, it is also noted in the staff comments that he has done wonders with the other property, the two adjacent pieces of property that he has developed.

» I think good stewards of the community, and he wants to do something for a piece of property in an area that could use some cleanup and good stewards. Thank you, Mr. Tomlinson. Any other discussion? All right. I did not support this on first reading, and then I did a little more research, and I still can't support it. This property is surrounded by residential. If there's already, his adjacent land is already several acres, if this property is rezoned, that's a total of 5.4 acres. I absolutely think the citizen has done amazing with the current zoning he has and the building he has there. My issue is that he's not, he doesn't have any plans for that area, so it's very speculative of what's going to happen to that area.

» And so when we sit in these chairs and we make these decisions, we have to think about the future. And so what I see potentially happening is the property next to him comes back for GD, and the property next to that comes back for GD, and then you have an entire section in the middle of a residential area that has already contacted me and complaining about growth that could potentially be apartments, townhomes, multifamily, up to four stories high in general development. So I don't have any kind of issue with what he wants to do. I just would like to see a plan before I vote, because this citizen, you never know what's going to happen. Something unforeseen could happen and a developer could offer him any amount of money for that, and it could be a four-story apartment before we know it.

» And that unfortunately has happened in East Camden or is going to happen with other properties. So at this time, it's just too speculative and I can't support it. I would be more than happy to reconsider a rezoning with plans in hand for a warehouse, but right now we can't ensure that one once we take it out of residential GD that it's not going to be 17 more houses or 46 dwellings of multifamily. May I ask a question for Mr. DeBose? Mr.

» DeBose, if we did the overlay district, let's fast forward a year and a half, if we had an overlay district or a flex zoning district in an area like this, would this be an example where we could do, assuming we had flex zoning that was in the ordinance, where we could do a flex zoning and basically have some agreement with him that this can be re-zoned for this use but not necessarily residential? Conceivably, yes. I mean conceivably in very broad strokes. I mean that's something to your point, because I know we don't allow conditional use zoning, but that could be an option potentially. And I'm, again, I am not concerned about this specific owner, anything he's done, nothing.

» I'm looking to the future when those three parcels all together are GD, that's 5.4 acres, and anything goes at that point. So, yes sir, can you come to the podium please and state your name? Good evening, I'm Richard Deal. Oh, hi Richard. I'm sorry I didn't see you back there. I have the parcel beside it. The two of them together is less, just under two acres, it's not five some, that's somebody else. Okay, the one on the corner. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's not my property. Okay. I just wanted to clear that up. Thank you, I made a mistake. Yeah, I made a mistake. And I do just intend to build a warehouse partially for me and one of my other tenants needs more space. Yes.

» I mean, you can't go by my word, but I'm not Yeah, it's something could happen to you tomorrow and someone could buy that up and really wants its general development. I mean, the density is maxed out, anything really goes. So I would feel more comfortable if you're like, this is what I'm building, here's where I'm building it, and here's why I need it rezoned specifically. Yeah, but I'm just a small landowner and to go and have all the engineering stuff come back and then come go through all this again and you know what I mean? I thought this was the first step instead of going with an engineer and getting all that stuff done. That's why I started here. I'm just kind of ignorant to the process, I guess. Okay. Mr.

» Deal, I've been in your shoes and I can typically tell when somebody's being genuine. What's your intent? I want to build about eight, maybe 10,000 square foot warehouse. I have a bunch of stuff to store and between me and my in-laws and a company Steratech who stores some screen printing machines in my other building needs more space and I'd like to be the one to rent to them. So the property is adjacent to commercial property you already own? Correct. I'm looking at the map. I want to make sure I'm clear. You own the small parcel with two buildings on it that are perpendicular to one another? Correct. And if I'm looking at this aerial photo, the parcel to the left of that is what you want to add more warehouse to. Is that right? Correct.

» And that's all the property you own in this area? Yes. Okay. Is there a home next to that property? Would he have to put up a fence or anything to give the homeowner next door? Any kind of visual aid? Or no? No buffer? Nothing? Not that I'm aware. Okay. I think we'd actually need the visual aid. But I did consider a fence or a row of pines or something just in my thinking about it. Well, I'm not against free enterprise. I don't want to spot zone. Did the planning commission deem this spot zoning? No, they didn't. Unanimous. Because it's already next to, it's connected to another. Those other new lots were rezoned back in 2009. That's what it says to general development from R15. So you're taking a .92 acre lot that you have currently sitting next to a lot to build a warehouse on.

» I'm perfectly fine with the rezoning of it. And you seem like a genuine person and we can't prevent what happens 25 years down the road. But for that's not, you know, for right now, I think you're being a genuine person. And I'd like to see second reading be approved. Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Tucker. Let me say this to you, Mr. Deal. This is the appropriate step. You're in the right place. You've done no wrong. You can come up with the best architect plans, spend all your savings and show them to us and then when it's approved, do whatever you want with your property. That is your God-given right once we rezone it. We can't require you to bring us any plans. That is not what we do. We can only ask and you can only speak to what you want to do if you want to speak to what you want to do.

» I just want to make this abundantly clear because I think sometimes we try to guide or lean a certain way because of certain things that we personally may not like. But, you know, you're within your rights of having this rezone and putting your warehouses there or whatever you want to put there once it's zoned GD. You know, I struggle sometimes up on this dais about freedom and liberties when it's convenient for us. But the citizens, this is the line you got to toe. I'm going to support you tonight and I'll support you on third reading. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. Anyone else? Well, I'd like to just say that that was well said, Mr. Tucker. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

» But I'll tell you what, there's not a whole lot of freedom and liberties because when you have a man that's going to move an 8x10 shed from one acre lot to the other and he's got to get permission to do that, that's not freedom. Anyway, I want to support you. I'm glad you were here. Glad I got to hear you get up and speak to us. And good luck. Thank you. Anyone else? Any questions? Okay. All right. All those in favor of approving the second reading of the ordinance to amend the official zoning map of TMS 2720500162, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Jones, Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Basel. All those opposed? Ms. Quinn? And the ordinance passes the second reading. Thank you, Councilman. Thank you for being here, too. Thank you. All right. The next ordinance.

» Second reading of an ordinance of Kershaw County Council to establish a litter control ordinance which shall prohibit the unlawful disposal of litter or solid waste in Kershaw County and provide enforcement and penalty provisions for violations. There are motion pertaining to this ordinance. Mr. Shoemake, motions to adopt? Chair, I second. Second by Mr. Tomlinson. Into discussion. Mr. Shoemake, you have the floor. Thank you. Sure. So, for one, I, as, as sort of a part of the way I make my living is being in courtrooms and arguing in defense of people's constitutional rights. So, very, very sensitive to any implication that this doesn't do that. I'd like to point out that no ordinance can do something that the Constitution prohibits.

» So, the idea that anything in here would allow an officer to do something they can't do under the Constitution is not accurate. There was also something about property owners having to take ownership. That's actually, that is in here, but that's actually state law. South Carolina Code 1611700 actually has that requirement in there. So, that is actually not something that, that exists now. So, that's not something that would change with this ordinance. That's, again, statutory. However, I also think that clearly, if you look at Section 7, the big rub seems to be, certainly B, yeah, B, and then E and F are sort of the implementing mechanisms of how we go about, you know, assessing property owners. I have no objection to removing those. They don't really affect the statute.

» Again, to be clear, the intent of this was never to have law enforcement officers be able to do something they wouldn't otherwise be able to do. And certainly as to E and F, those are simply enforcement mechanisms. It doesn't change the state law, though. I mean, if something stays on someone's property for a certain amount of time, state law says it's their responsibility to clean up. That's just the state law. So I would make a motion to amend the statute to remove sections 7b, e, and f. Second. Second by Mr. Brazel. All right, motion to amend section 7, enforcement, bravo, echo, and foxtrot. Discussion on that amendment. I would like to further, it may be easier that I make a second motion, or we could do this all in one. The fact that we don't have a maximum penalty is a little vague.

» Ma'am? Yes, please. So the law, because it's a misdemeanor, the maximum penalty is $1,000 under the law. That is the maximum penalty. It says 750, but the maximum legal penalty a magistrate judge can assess under South Carolina law is $1,000. And we don't set that. Correct. Just for clarity, can we include that in section 6? I don't have any trouble with that. It's the law, right? Correct. We could add section 6 D and just state that the maximum for any fine is $1,000 per state law. Can I restate? Mr. Dubose, does that need an amendment or is that just an administrative typing? That would need an amendment, but I think Mr. Shemake perhaps is going to restate his...

» May I restate my amendment? I would motion to amend the ordinance to amend section 6 to add a section D stating the maximum fine would be no more than $1,000. Just to be clear, maybe say no more than $1,000 per South Carolina law, just to make it clear that we're hearkening back to state law. And then also to delete section 7, B, E, and F. Can you put the statute in there, like 50, whatever it is? Can we... Yeah, I don't have it on top of my head, but yes, we can do that. Mr. Brazler, you still second? Yeah, I'll support it under those circumstances. Okay. Any discussion on those amendments? Thank you, Mr. Shumake. I had those highlighted to ask about.

» All right, all those in favor of the amendment of adding to section 6, a maximum fine for SC law and removing in section 7, strike bravo, echo, and foxtrot. Indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Jones, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel. Okay, the amendment passes. Back to the whole document. That's going to be D now. That's going to be 6D. 6D would be the $1,000. I just want to say, too, to the folks that came, I appreciate it. So, the worst thing about being a lawyer is you make assumptions sometimes that are not fair to make. I read something like this and say, well, the Constitution only lets you do so much. So, I understand the confusion. Sometimes it's difficult for lawyers, and I'm sure Mr. DuBose doesn't have this problem, but I do.

» Sometimes it's difficult for lawyers to remember that not everybody thinks like a lawyer. So, I appreciate the concerns that were brought up. The intent of this statute was always to just increase the penalty. Are we back to vote in on the original orders? Yes, sir, we are. We're talking about the main discussion. We talk about people walking on people's property. You know, if they get a complaint, you know what plain view is, Mr. Shoemake. And you know, if a law enforcement gets a call and they go to that property, they can walk on that property and of course whatever they see in plain view, they can write it up and they can do a little scan while they knock on the front door, go around the back door, do a little scan, knock on the door.

» I mean, it is what it is, that they will have the right to go on the property. What I have a problem with, and I had a dear friend of mine who was on the commission, say please support this. And I told her as much as I loved her and her husband, I would probably support it, but after I started reading more into it on the second reading, I have some problems, and I'm glad you took some of them out. But here's where I have an issue with this law. We already have a law on the books, 16, 11, 700. Back when I was running this in 1985, we had a very successful litter control program. And we wrote state citations, I got audited every year, I had to keep up with them, that's why they want to do it, it's a lot of work.

» But I mean, we had laws on the books that we enforced tarps, we enforced litter, we enforced whatever came out, and that's where I have a problem. That's my first problem. My second problem is we're not enforcing that now, we haven't been enforcing that, we're not doing any enforcement, basically, how are we going to enforce this new ordinance that we're putting on the books? There's no additional officers. I mean, is there a plan of enforcement? May I? Yes. I asked that at the last meeting, so I'm sure you looked at it, got some folks, some folks. Go ahead. And so, as to the first point on the state law, the reason, the whole reason this ordinance is existing is the state law fine for individual litter is $25.

» And I think when you have small fines like that, a lot of times officers, especially when they go to court and see a judge just waive a $25 fine and someone walk out, so I think that item dovetails into the second. By increasing the fines, one, it gives officers a greater tool. There's also community service in here, which the state law is sort of wishy-washy on. This is mandatory community service. And by the way, if someone can't pay, I want to be clear about this, if someone can't pay, South Carolina law allows a judge to waive a fine if someone can't pay. That doesn't have to be in a statute. That is a magistrate's authority based on certain circumstances. But the community service, so they can adjust it based on finances, but the community service is there.

» So I think that's why it's different than the state. As to the second point, enforcement, that's a fair point. It's the biggest issue, but I think this is step one. But I completely agree it's an issue. I know the sheriff has started advertising for a litter enforcement officer. One of the discussions I'd like to have when we move into budget is moving that person back to code enforcement so that they don't get moved over into courthouse security. I understand the sheriff's position. The sheriff has a litter officer, but he has courthouse issues. I get that. So that's one mechanism. They're advertising for it now, so that's one mechanism for enforcement. And I think the increased fines allow officers to do more.

» And if we start, it's one of those things that obviously we never pass statutes to raise, the penalty statutes aren't designed to raise revenue, but if a code enforcement officer is out there doing the job, then potentially we could hire another. And I think when they go to court, any officer, and you guys, I mean several people up here were cops, I worked with cops, there's nothing more demoralizing than working a case up going to court just to watch a judge do nothing with it. And the current state law allows that. This allows a judge to go in and say, you know what, you get to spend eight hours on the road. And I think we have to give it a test run. I understand you may not support it, I respect that completely. I'm not going to support it on second reading.

» That's fine, and I think your criticism is fair, Councilman Jones. I think enforcement is critical here. I agree with that. those states don't have the litter issues on the roads that we do. And so I will disagree that I don't think our state law is currently working. And I commend Mr. Shoemake for taking the opportunity to put this on. You know, I don't think the fine is important in my opinion. The community service is the important part because I can promise you when people start having to do manual labor for throwing out a piece of trash, they're going to think twice before next time doing it. You know, I really think we're in a great situation to do something good and make Kershaw County the model for South Carolina. We're not doing nothing but making a law.

» We haven't done anything yet because we don't know how we're going to enforce it. And that's just my... Litter officer and everything else, but... I'll talk more about this. It's going to be good when Kershaw County is the model for South Carolina, though. Yeah. Mr. Jones, to your point, you cannot legislate behavior. So as many laws as we come up with, it's not going to stop the behavior piece of this, which is people littering. So perhaps the penalty will, the community service, I think, absolutely is worth a try. But I shared this on first reading, the enforcement is not there now. So I, too, want to know what our plan is to enforce this because we do already have it on the books, not in Kershaw County, but we already have a state law.

» Well, when we bring him back, we need to put him on code enforcement. I'm going to tell you now, with the sheriff, he's got a lot of serious things that he runs calls on, and they're running them day and night, 24 hours a day, and I just think that if we're going to do the litter control, it needs to be our code enforcement. There needs to be litter control, no question about that. I'm just saying I just hate making a law that is pretty detailed, and we have no plan of enforcement.

» Well, Councilman Jones, you and I talked the other day just about maybe having a roundtable one-off ad hoc and getting everybody on board, because I think if any of these fine officers were driving home or driving from point A to point B in the county and they saw somebody throw a McDonald's cup out the window or do something very intently, that they would have the option to pull them over, and hopefully they would. But I think they can now. I don't think they need this to be able to do that. And you may be right, but I think this is a stronger statement. I wasn't really for the increase, the First Amendment and the first reading. I voted against it, and I was going to vote against it tonight until Derek removed the language that he did. But, I mean, there's a problem.

» We have to acknowledge there's a problem in the community, and does this fix it? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I would say, just like any trial run that we have, if we feel like it's not working, we can repeal it. If we feel like it's made a difference, then we've done something good. I want to ask the man that runs the county for us, the county administrator, what's your plan of enforcement? You know, we've talked about this many times. Well, and it's a good question. I think, you know, adding a literate enforcement officer, but then also having a conversation to Mr. Razzle's point, I was a cop for a long time. I worked a road for 10 years. I wrote litter tickets. I drove a marked car. I responded to bank.

» I think, you know, any uniformed officer in the jurisdiction of Kershaw County can write this ticket. And, you know, if we all get on board and we attack it wholeheartedly, then I think everybody should be pitching in, whether you're a literate enforcement officer or you're a deputy or a city cop. I mean, it's just... You could add the Department of National Resources, DNR officers. Yeah. Call Disneyland. Let me tell you something. Yeah, Mickey Mouse could write a ticket. You guys, you know, your perfect world bringing everybody together and everybody's going to write litter tickets, they're not going to do that. I'm saying we need a plan of enforcement. And that's all I'm asking y'all. Well, let's have a roundtable to figure that out. Thank you. All right.

» Any other comments? Madam Chair. Yes, Mr. Cato. I just want to say a few things. One, I wouldn't have supported this tonight, as Russell just mentioned. If those particular paragraphs had not been stricken, I wouldn't have supported it. Now, you know, here a while back, I had a personal issue with... And first of all, let me say, this ordinance is not about what you piling up behind your house in a debris pile to burn limbs and that guy had three phone calls today on this. And it's not about your residents. This is about people that's dumping trash on other people's property, that's dumping shingles or that's throwing trash in streams. And just not too long ago, eight bags of garbage was found in a stream not too far from where I live.

» Called a deputy, deputy come up there, he put waders on, he went out there, he looked through the trash and found the name of the person that dumped the trash. Now, instead of telling that person, well, I'll just give you a $25 fine, he said, I want you to go out there and clean it up or I'm going to charge you. He didn't know what the fine was. I guess my point to all this is that it's kind of like the seatbelt law. Seatbelt law is $25. Well, you know, some people just say, I'm not going to wear a seatbelt. If he stops me, I'll just pay $25. What's $25? Same way with the litter. $25, I'll just throw my trash wherever I want to. All they're going to charge me is $25 and if they catch me, they catch me. If they don't, they don't. I just think it's a deterrent and I think it's a start.

» But again, I would not have supported it with the other language in there. But I do believe, to Mr. Jones' point, we need to have a conversation. We need to find a plan moving forward to make sure that we're enforcing this or that we're at least paying closer attention to what's going on. And maybe the sheriff's office, if there's a discussion we can have with the sheriff, maybe he'll get his deputies to pay closer attention to what's going on with the litter. I appreciate this deputy to come out and done that for me. I mean, listen, he cleaned up eight bags of trash that was thrown in a stream. So a lot of it is officer discretion, but I do think it's a deterrent. And that's the only reason. That's why I'm going to support it.

» And with one officer, it would be a complaint-based driven enforcement, and we all know that. Because back in 1985. My favorite year. She told me not to use that word anymore, 85. Back in 1985, we used to go clean out streams all the time with tires and stuff like that. I'm just saying, we had a great, great program. I'm sure Mark Carter remembers that, if he was here then. But we had a great program back in 1985, and we had a clean community commission. We were writing tickets, working with people on those tickets so that they could clean up, do things. But it was really good. I don't know what happened. We just dropped the ball somewhere down in 1985. I just can't figure it out. I might support this on third reading, but I'm going to do some homework.

» I've got to do some homework on this state law and research a little bit more to refresh my brilliant memory. And I'll be ready for some more conversation at the next meeting. But I just wish we had talked about how we're going to enforce it before we pass the law, because we've got so many laws on the books now we don't enforce. But anyway, thank you. I'll be looking forward to the conversation and the dialogue at the next meeting or third reading. Thank you, Mr. Jones. So I, in first reading and leading up to this, I always thought the intent was to clean up our roadways and to make our community look better, because there is trash everywhere. So I agree with you, Mr. Cato, it wasn't about personal property or people having trash on their property, but that is included in the ordinance.

» So I'm going to vote for it. I'm willing to give it a chance, but Mr. Jones, I think we need to revisit it in six months. I think we need to see how it goes. We got third reading, too. Well, right. If it passes third reading, I think we need to keep it on our radar or everyone's radar and see if we're making, if it's made a change or not. If it does start to infringe or it's used to go on personal property, then I'll put it back on the agenda to appeal. One thing I want to say, I think any time the folks come up here, Mr.

» Shoemaker, as you said, they may be misinformed or mis-whatever, interpreted what they were, then we have failed as a body of council, and they have elected, the people elected us to sit up here, we have failed them if we haven't communicated properly with them as to what intent and what this is going to do. And I appreciate what you did tonight. That's why I supported the amendment. But I think it's, I wish we would have some plan to inform the people more about exactly what we're doing, have better communication, because obviously there was none with all the folks that got up here tonight. Well, hopefully that's what this does, right? Start. I give you credit for that, seriously.

» And I know you're intent, and you're a good man, and you're very smart, but as I said, I would just like to give this a little bit of time, and let's get a plan of enforcement before we start putting laws on the books. Okay. All those in favor of the second reading of the ordinance of Kershaw County Council to establish a litter control ordinance, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel, all those opposed. Mr. Jones, right, ordinance passed the second reading. It will be on February 27th for the third and final reading. Madam Chair, on that one, it'll be March 12th. March 12th. The revision of the Chronicles public hearing notice. Okay. Yeah, correct. Okay. Thank you for that correction. March 12th, third reading.

» Okay, next ordinance. First reading, an amended and restated ordinance to create a joint multi-county business park with Lee County. This multi-county business park to be comprised of property located in Lee County and Kershaw County and established pursuant to South Carolina Code of Laws. 1976, section 41170, as amended to provide an amended written agreement with Lee County providing for the expenses of the park, the percentage of revenue application, and the distribution of fee in lieu of adverium taxes to the counties and relevant taxing entities and to provide that job tax credits allowed by law be provided for industries located within said park and to permit a user fee in lieu of ad valorem taxation. Madam Chair? Yes.

» I can make a motion that we pass first reading on the joint multi-part with Lee County. Okay. Mr. Tucker, with a motion to approve first reading, is there a second? Second. Second, Mr. Brazel, and into discussion. Mr. Tucker, do you have anything? I just want to ask the county attorney or the administrator, is I know we've had a joint multi-part agreement before with Lee County. Is this a new one or this is a renewal? This is an amendment restatement of the existing property, which is the mechanism typically used anytime you're adding or expanding park boundaries. So, yeah. Does this put Kershaw County's economic development at any disadvantage or advantage? No. No, this have been changes.

» This amendment and restatement and the placement of these new properties in this particular park was the recommendation of Mr. Burgess as far as where he wanted to park these projects. Right. This park, I believe, has the Prestige project in it at Governor's Hill. I think that is in it. This is just expanding with the addition of further properties, the multi-county park. Okay. Thank you. That's good. Any other topics of discussion or questions? All those in favor of the first reading of the amended and restated ordinance to create a joint multi-county business park with Lee County, indicate by raising your hand. Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Cato, Mr. Jones, myself, Mr. Shoemake, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Brazel. Right. This passed his first reading.

» Deleted Bravo, so Charlie, Finance Committee update placed on the agenda by Councilman Shoemake, so I'll give you the floor, Mr. Shoemake. Mr. Tucker, start. Yes, sir, if you don't mind. I appreciate you getting this on the agenda floors. So, our summary is the Finance Committee has begun its process of meeting with various departments on financial issues and have received certain requests for a review. The details of that review are contained in your handout that we gave you. So, let's start off with the detention center. We had a long discussion with the detention center.

» It's working on plans to adjust officers' pay for the remainder of this year, 2023, and is looking to inquire for about $36,000 to $40,000 of nurse services to make sure that we can better take care of our inmates on a more regular basis as required down at the detention center. So, these are some things that staff is looking at, the detention center talked about. I think y'all were here when they came and gave y'all the presentation as well. So, we'll update you as we know more as Mr. Templer let us know. So, we will continue studying recommendations to fund a new jail or jail extensions on that part. And I just want to, as I go down these items and complete, want to ask my colleagues if there's anything that they want to add. Mr. Shumate, Mr. Tomlinson? I don't have anything to add.

» Thank you. Okay. Let's move down to item number two, solid waste. Solid waste is working on restructuring how they receive items at recycle centers, including white goods and tires. They are rotating new equipment. They are working on a new lay down area for yard debris, and they are out. I, and the finance committee, want you to keep in mind, solid waste is on a fee budget. So, as the years go by and the services, the demands go up for services, it outlives and outneeds the fee. Yes, sir, Mr. Jones. Who created that fee? Council did. In 2012. I can't remember the exact year. It was a balanced budget in general funding. Y'all created a fee, so we don't need to pour mouth about a fee. Come back in the 21st century. Thank you.

» So, with that being said, keep that in mind as we go through the budget process. The finance committee supports exploring adjusting the hours of operation at the recycle centers. Staff is going to figure out some best practice moving forward, and I think it was said by this council at the retreat as well, before we make any changes, make sure we inform council. And staff did agree on that. So, we can make sure. Or veto or support. Yep. So, we can, you know, be aware and answer questions if citizens start calling us. Any comments on that, Mr. She-mate? Mr. Donaldson? Okay. EMS. EMS is going, and that says shifts. Typo. Yeah, I have a typo. I'll correct that typo for a bit of the agenda. I left the F out of the word shifts for those. Mr. President, you have something you wanted to say.

» My apologies. I had to bring that up. Highlight of the night. I just, before we get into the EMS, and I know that it looks like they're going to do something that was needed a couple of years ago with your shift change. I think that's a positive. But I want to back up just a quick minute regarding the recycling centers. I want to be very careful not to close those down because any hours or change to make it more convenient for the employee is going to make it less convenient for the citizen. I agree. And I just want to be very careful about how we... I agree. When you say close down, you mean like reduce hours or you're talking about close it period? It's new style. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm talking about. You know that.

» Everybody takes their trash off on the weekends and Friday afternoon, Saturday, Sundays. Well, I think what staff is proposing, and I'm not going to speak for them administrators there, what they're asking for is another reset day, and it doesn't have to be on the weekend. They just need another reset day so they can be more efficient about getting the stuff to the landfill. Because you know the landfill is not open on weekends anymore. That stopped last year. Right. So we can't close on the weekend. Right. It's pointless to close on the weekend. Yes. Because we can't take our wet trash or household trash from the compactors. We can't haul those to any of the dumps. There's one open, and so it wouldn't do us any good to be closed on a Sunday or Saturday. Would we need... Oh, sorry. Ms.

» Brazel. No, no, I'm sorry. Are we still contemplating doing a test run with the folks with the... That was my question. Would we need a reset day if we were taking less loads? It's got to be everything. So we're going to do the compaction thing. I still recommend us do it on our own. And so it's going to be a combination of everything. This has to be looked at from top to bottom, solid waste. The lay down area, I am really going to push for that money to be included in this year's budget. I think there's going to be some room for that. I think the lay down area is a great idea. And it's just, again, that's where we find the efficiencies and the convenience.

» It's a rare intersection that we can do that in government, but I think there's a complete opportunity for that on the West Watery side. I wouldn't want to take my yard debris from over in Lugoff all the way out to Park Road. That's just not fair. So the opportunity to have a lay down yard that is big enough for us to even maybe explore with some of the white goods and things like that. I think it just offers a lot of opportunity. And it's going to, so if we're not taking yard waste over on the West Watery side, then that in and of itself reduces the pressure on staff and those sites. And then you do the compaction, and that just further adds volume and capacity to the sites themselves. So we're still going to take cardboard there.

» That's another tough load to haul because it's just very inefficient. It's very expanded. So when you're able to pack it down efficiently, then you just get so much more. So that's why I say top to bottom. Yeah. Yes. I went to our landfill this morning and had a very pleasant experience. Good for you. So, Mr. Taylor, you said at the retreat, I would like to see you exhaust every single measure of efficiency before you reduce the hours. I disagree that we're too convenient. That's, people are paying for it. Well, I would say allow staff to bring you back some of their studies because if you look, you're going to find out we're always making comparison to adjacent counties. We're open a lot of hours compared to some of the adjacent counties. We're better than that.

» Can you let me finish, please? Yes, I'm sorry. Just attack me like a wild dog. So just be open-minded is all I'm asking. I'm not asking you to agree with what the finance committee is reporting out. I'm just stating what we all agree to in the finance committee meeting along with staff. So these things are going to be brought out to you in its totality, and then council can make a decision. But just stay open-minded as much as possible. And if I may add, I'm going to do everything I can before I have to come and ask for an increase in fee. So that's my exhausting all options. What's that fee now, Mr. Templer? What is it now? It went up to $120, $130? Yes. We just increased it maybe two years ago, Mr. Jones. Correct. Two years ago.

» So back on EMS, EMS is going to 2472 immediately with no budget increase. So they have this money, this capability. So it's an operational decision. And the finance committee backs the administrator and staff in going to that. That is crucial and very important to trying to attract good EMS workers. You'll be surprised at who we've lost and not only lost from here, but who's not coming because of not pay, but hours work. So that 2472 is really, really important. Very impressive staff. So I have to say, like Russell said, though, they've been asking for this when even Gerald was in charge. Yeah. So we just couldn't figure out how to make it work. But that's another thing, too, I want to brag on by putting them on their millage, how they have been very frugal and managing their monies.

» And now that they can afford to do that, because if you look at the well, let's look at item B, 3B, they are completing Dominion Energy's building off of 521 South for the new EMS station. That's in progress. And Mr. Temple, feel free to jump in if you want to do more explaining. But that's what we have there. They are requesting hiring of six additional FTEs for budget 2425. This is with no tax increase. So the difference here in going 2472 is they can afford to do it in the budget. The additional six positions takes council approval. So that's why it needs to be in this budget. But they're not asking for money. They just need the positions so they can fill them and have the help and make everything work moving forward. So I wanted to put that out. Jim Edge is doing a fantastic job.

» Oh, yeah. He's on it. Mr. Thompson, Mr. Shumate, y'all okay? Okay. Mr. Tucker, question. Yes, ma'am. So they don't need salary and fringe added to their budget? No, ma'am. Okay. No, ma'am. They just need the actual position. Six FTEs. Yes, ma'am. Isn't that good news? Because we don't have to worry about finding that money. All right. The ZLDR, and I'll make sure that Mr. Shumate get in on this. Planning and zoning informs us that the major ZLDR changes after March, so this is important, will delay the comprehensive plan, ZLDR rewrite, and add cost to the ZLDR process. So whatever changes we have moving forward, let's try to get them in because if we keep adding to it, it sets them back, the process back, drives the cost up. When are we meeting with them? 18th? I'm not sure.

» Do we have that schedule, Danny? Gerald? ZLDR. Those dates were given to us. 18th. There we go. That's March. I knew that. Yes. So, and just to kind of piggyback on that, Councilman Tucker, yeah, so basically we'd want to have, if we want to do any big ZLDR change, we want to have that first reading, you know, in March. You know, obviously we can't have three readings before March. We want to have that first reading in March. So that the folks know what sort of our goals are. What that means is anything that has to go to the planning commission before it comes to us would be probably a major ZLDR change. So it doesn't mean we can't do it. It just means that they'll have to kind of reset their process. And so that's just something to be mindful of.

» Again, that's why the recommendation of finance is barring an emergency. And those may come up. But just wanted everybody to have eyes wide open in terms of what that did to the process. Thank you, Mr. Shumate. Mr. Tomes, you got anything, sir? Okay. So, yeah, so he took care of item B just now. Go down to impact fees. We discussed that. Staff has identified projects and would benefit from impact fee. Moving forward, we will expand time and financial resources, expand time and financial resources. So council should be sure it wants to explore this option. So what we're saying here is if we want to move forward, we need an update from our consultants that did the impact fee, and that's going to run between $3,000 and $4,000.

» We don't want to spend the money if we're not serious about moving forward, is what the committees recommend. Don't waste dollars on going down a rabbit hole if it's not what the council wants to do. Okay. So it almost... For legal... Go ahead, Mr. Shumate. Well, I was going to say what we kind of talked about is it almost makes sense to have, and it can be a discussion. We could even have sort of a vote that is sort of an advisory vote, but basically the concern is we don't want to put thousands of dollars into this, have staff put all the footwork into building out a huge impact fee plan just for us to say we're not going to support impact fees as a matter of course. So I don't know the best way to do that, and that's what we kind of talked about in finance.

» That's why we're putting it obviously to the group. You know, the best way for us to be able to communicate to staff that we're generally in favor, should we expend these efforts or not? I mean, if impact fees are going to fail, you know, 5, 2, 6, 1, then, you know, obviously we don't want to spend all those thousands of dollars. So I don't know the next step, but that's where we are. Mr. DeBose, how do impact fees coincide with a moratorium? If we implement an impact fee, does that take moratorium off the table or vice versa? Impact fees are paid at the time a building permit is issued typically. So if there was a hypothetical moratorium for some period of time, you wouldn't collect the fees. I mean, you could still...

» So I understand that, but if we implement an impact fee, is there any legality? Okay, now we're doing a moratorium. If we didn't wait long enough to let our impact fee, for lack of a better word, be impactful. I get where you're going with that. So your impact fees are typically linked to project lists because you have to justify the amortization of the fees. Okay. And you have to spend the money within three years of your projected project date. So to answer your question concisely, which again, I know these dissertations, it could be very impactful if a moratorium went into place for six months and you had impact fees in place. Your rate of collection might be such that it would require a revision of the CIP that's linked to it. I mean, it could throw things into chaos. Okay. Yes.

» I mean, that's a valid concern, Madam Chair. Okay. And I ask that because I'm just trying to think which direction... No, that's a good question. And that's why we're, you know, we... Hellfire or nuke in my mind. We want... Because we were sitting looking at each other. Okay. So do we recommend moving forward? Do we recommend... We really don't know, but it won't cost a dime to bring them back before us. My understanding, right? Mr. Templer, to have another conversation. It's just going to cost us to update. Correct. Yeah. So... Yeah. And I don't know if you wanted to go to this level, but where staff is looking at having that money go to is solid waste. We just think it's the most impactful.

» And then also remember that you can discount the impact fee all the way down to zero if you just don't want to collect it for any period of time. So that's an option. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Templer, because I did forget that discussion. Okay. So, almost there, Madam Chair. So, overall budget, 2023-24, the overall budget is on track to finish a good year. We've had some line items that where administration had to juggle a little bit as far as not outside the department's budget, but, you know, things that they saw they needed to spend versus something that they didn't really need because things change within the departments, but other than that, we got a chance to look at the overall budget and it looks good moving forward.

» So, we have no major or any changes of concerns that we need to bring before you at this time. All right. Um, let's go down to 6B. Finance Committee recommends changing the date for the third reading of the budget, 24-25, from June 11th to June 25th. That's a recommendation. I've heard from some of y'all that, um, you may not like that, but, um, you know, June 11th is an election day itself. Um, there's three of us up here on this dais that's running for re-election. Um, I don't know how my colleagues feel, but, um, I have never in 20 years made council meeting on election night, and I don't plan on making it that night.

» Um, it's, it's election night, and so I would greatly appreciate it if this body reconsiders another date, which we recommended the 25th, because that was our next scheduled meeting date. So, think about that. Mr. Tucker. Yes, ma'am. Um, May 28th, like, why not move it in the other direction? Uh, we just wanted to have adequate staff, I mean, our time with staff, and, um, you know, we really struggle with uh, the state, and our local fund, and things that we get from them to make sure that we balance, so, and they, state usually doesn't finish to June, so that's why we didn't go back into May. Can we do it on Monday? Can you do it on Monday? No. Maybe we put a thread together. Yeah, and figure out, can we, can we, I don't mind having a special call.

» I don't want to move it back closer to July, because that's kind of what we last year discussed trying to get away from, um, so that we're, we have reaction time. Well, can we, can we get to this? I've never missed the third reading of the budget. Sir? I said I've never missed the third reading of the budget, and I don't want y'all to force me to have to do it this time. No, no, we won't. Let's make sure the change is something we all want to do. I think third reading is too important for anybody to miss, and that's why I'm saying that. Um, Madam Chair, what's wrong with that week calling a special meeting, because miss, haven't I said that? Yeah, I'm all for that.

» But, you know, so it'll be after the 11th, but, you know, we still got Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, uh, even if we just come and just read the budget, I mean, special call meeting for that. Mr. I know Mr. Cato is, is there any way you could call in or is it not? I came after that. Okay. We'll look into that then. Cause Mr. Cato, I know we were talking earlier trying to figure out a date. We were hoping to be able to propose an alternative date rather than just say, well, we proposed that, but then it came that some folks might be on vacation and obviously everybody wants to be your third reading. So I know Mr. Cato has a vacation that week. Oh, you know his schedule. I don't know your own. Cause we, cause we talk, I don't never know mine. My wife's talking to mine.

» My wife and my paralegal control my life. Okay. I'm flexible. I just don't want it to push it too further, too much past. Can we, can we, you know, look, look at dates? Oh yeah, absolutely. If he's not gone out of town on that week, can you let me say, I don't know about tomorrow? Mr. Cato? I'd rather not, I'd rather not publicize the dates I'm going to be gone. No, I said to Ms. Hannah. To Ms. Hannah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To Ms. Hannah. So if that, if that week doesn't work, then we can, you know, the following week. So I got you. I got you. Security. With that being said, this body, the finance committee will have the, the work session meetings with count with staff's approval for us to vote on at the 27th meeting, Madam Chair.

» So I will be in touch with you as soon as we can start getting those nailed down. We haven't done anything. So we'll be looking at those because what we're going to try to avoid is anything to do where you may be out of town on drill. Okay. And I don't have your schedule. So we're going to go from there, but that's, that's what we're, we're trying to be, even though it's not mandatory for all of us to be there, we just, we're trying to work with everyone. The last thing on 6C, finance committee will meet with the accountant. Finance committee did. Okay. And we've already talked about this in Russell's discussion. So I don't think it's a need to go back over that. That's okay. Unless someone has some questions. You good, Mr. Brazel? Okay. Mr. Tucker, thank you for this memorandum.

» Yes, ma'am. Thank Mr. Shoemate for even I can ask. Yeah. Since we're talking about it, can I'll send you a fresh copy of this before you throw the, my profane agenda or memo on the agenda. I just want to fix that one out. And for the public certification, the only change I'm making from what's up here is I'm adding an F to the word in shifts so that I do not obligate obscene material. I want to say, Ms. Madam Chair, that I want to thank my two colleagues. I want to thank Mr. Cato as well because he, he came, Mr. Jones stopped by for a little while. I know you had a busy schedule, but staff has been very accommodating and getting us what we need. Thank you. Yeah. We'll appreciate that. Ms. Lauren, you're a jewel. I'm not even talking about the other two guys. You're a jewel.

» We'll appreciate you. And I appreciate them always willing to be accommodating because my schedule is not to eat. You're not skipping your meeting. No, no. I was at the airport commission. Right. Yeah. No, I didn't. And that's why I said you had plenty going on. So no, no. And I don't feel bad when y'all can't make them. I just want you to know that you're always invited. You ready to go? No, Jimmy, you don't have a job to go to in the morning. I do. So I'm going to keep you here until it's time for me to go to work. Some of you love to hear yourselves talk. We need to get. Oh, look who talking. Thank you, Madam Chair. That concludes our report. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Up to item number 13, appointments. Alpha, the Assessment Appeals Board. There's two vacancies.

» We do have an applicant. Her name is Ashley Huff. And she resides in District 6. So, um... Zoning. It's the one once it came off. Oh, okay. Okay. So, Assessment Appeals Board, we do not have any applicants. Moving to Bravo Board of Zoning Appeals. We have one vacancy and one applicant. And Mr. Cato, I'll give you the floor. Thank you so much for staying this late hour with us. It's just... You've toughed it out. I thank you so much for it. But I just want to tell you a little bit about Ms. Huff. She has a bachelor's degree in biosystems engineering with an emphasis in ecological and a minor in environmental engineering. I'm a Thule fellow to pronounce all them words. Say what? Ms. Huff briefed him prior. So... No, she actually didn't. I'm reading off this table. But, um...

» She is more than qualified. I have talked to her many times on the phone about different instances and circumstances. And she's a joy to talk with. And I think she'll be a great asset to this commission. I'd like to second your motion. Okay. Second by Mr. Tomlinson. Any other discussion? That's right. Welcome to the board. Thank you for your willingness to serve. All right. All those in favor of appointing Ms. Ashley Huff to the Board of Appeals. Indicate by raising your hand. The vote is unanimous. Congratulations, Ms. Huff. And again, thank you. Okay. Item number 14, council member briefs. Mr. Shoemake. It's up to you. The state finals did not go the way they had wanted, but they wrestled with amazing determination.

» And like I say, to even get to the state finals is, as everyone knows in this community, we have Elgin wrestling. It's a bit of a dynasty. So congratulations to those young men. And the Elgin Community Center broke ground recently. This is going to be a great spot in the Potter Community Park. It's not going to be, it's not going to take away anything that's in the park now. The main part of the park walking trail, that'll all stay together. But they're building a community center. It's going to be a great venue. One thing Elgin really lacks is a really great venue. The churches are wonderful about letting folks use it, but there's really no great just community venue spot. So it's going to be a wonderful chance for folks in Elgin to get together.

» So happy for Mayor Emmons and all the council members worked tirelessly on this. Councilwoman Sloan, Councilwoman Bradley, Councilman Handley, and returning Councilman Rizzo and again, Handley, all worked on this. So I appreciate their hard work and this county was able to help them a little bit with the funding on that. So I thank the council for that. And that is all I have. Thank you, Mr. Cato. Very brief, because I'm getting ugly looks from Jimmy over here. Very, very brief. First of all, I just want to congratulate a young man from North Central High School. Mr. Dylan Smith, they're actually going to do playoffs and basketball, but he actually finished his career scoring over 1,000 career points at North Central High School. So that's an accomplishment for him. It is.

» And he's a great young man, so I just wanted to congratulate him on that. And lastly, I just want to wish all you ladies a happy Valentine's Day. There you go. And I hope there's significant others really good to you. Y'all have a good night. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Cato. Mr. Tomlinson. I will also be brief. Thank you to staff and the few who weathered out the storm. Sorry we took so long in the back. It was a much needed conversation. Appreciate all my colleagues. And I think, you know, we're a council who it might not, it might seem this way, but, you know, not everything we're doing or anything we're doing is trying to be bad for the people. I think it came through in the litter ordinance. But I appreciate all my colleagues here being reasonable.

» And I think going forward, I look forward to working with every, each and every one of you. Thank y'all. Thank you, Mr. Tomlinson. Mr. Jones. I'd just like to thank Mr. Cato for reminding me of Valentine's Day tomorrow. I don't know if I'm going to go get a card now. Why am I closing 20 minutes? But anyway, thank you. I don't have a report. Thank you. I just need to get out of here. Thank you, Mr. Brazel. Quick update on the Highway 1 bridge. I spoke to Michael Todd with South Carolina Department of Transportation just before the meeting. And he said that he, the bid letting had happened and Mr. Templar, correct me if I'm wrong.

» There should be some improvement and hopefully all four, it won't be completely fixed, but the four lanes should be open or two lanes headed toward Camden from Lugov should be open by April 1st is what he told me. Have you heard the same information? That's pretty close, but yes, the first of the work will remove the cones so it gets both lanes back open. Yes. Yes. Yeah, ram jacks coming in to straighten it out. And then after that they're going to pour some concrete, but I thought that was good news. It's been pretty horrific trying to drive through town, so otherwise, that's it. Everybody have a good night. Thank you, Mr. Braswell. Mr. Tucker. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no rapport. Thank you, Mr. Tucker. All right, a couple things.

» I want to introduce you or remind you that Miss Anna Locke is in the audience. She is, it's probably not official, the unofficial leader of the Responsible Growth for Kershaw County group, so we've met a couple times. She's very smart and thank you for your input and thank you for the work your group is doing as well. Madam Chair, she has stood up there all night with a smile on her face. Yes, she has. Last week, some council members got to attend the Economic Development Institute's class. It's a year-long class broken out by quarters. It was really valuable. Mr. Braswell and I got to role play on the second day as if we were council and we took questions from the audience.

» It was a really great experience, but basically, what we are trying, not trying to, but we are learning how to better sell Kershaw County in the direction we want it to go and that goes to the Responsible Growth for Kershaw County, the direction you're trying to steer us as well. So, I'm really grateful for that opportunity. Last thing, I have an email from Lou Provenzano inviting any council member to join the Camden Hunt in their Master and Advisory Committee. They've adapted a new mission statement. Their purpose is to landscape landscape of our territory for future generations. So, they are also thinking about the future of Kershaw County and land use in their area too. So, he's invited us to be part of the conversation. I'll have more details. I'll email it out to you.

» It's open to anyone to get involved in that. So, that's all I have. Mr. Templer? No report. Mr. DeBose? No report. Okay. Item number 17, adjournment. Is there a motion to adjourn? Okay. Mr. Cato makes the motion. Is there a second? Second. Second from Mr. Tucker. Any discussion? All those in favor of adjourning tonight's meeting indicate by raising your hand. The vote is unanimous. This meeting is adjourned.